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 Post subject: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 3:32 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-10 2:52 pm
Age: Drake
Is there really any need for these two to be on the ban list?

Price seems like an odd reason since we have seen people happily paying fairly large sums for foil cards that would be worthless if not for EDH, which regular versions are less than a dollar. In addition to the fact that insanely expensive cards like moat, bazaar of baghdad, mishra's workshop, and several other 200+ dollar cards are legal.

Power level seems like an equally odd reason, as these cards don't really do anything that can't already be done, albeit at a significantly reduced cost, but as one-shot effects they really aren't that much more powerful or efficient than most other cards in EDH.

Broken-ness is just right out as while these cards may be very efficient they are hardly anywhere in the same league of brokenness (especially in a singleton multiplayer format with hundred card decks) as the other cards on the banned list, or even cards not on the banned list like oath, necropotence, land tax, and even crucible of worlds.

in addition the philosophy for the banned list in edh as I understand it is to have a list of cards that consistently and universally create unfun, unbalanced, and unfair gameplay if allowed to exist.

Having cards on the banned list that aren't inherently broken, and really aren't insanely powerful for their cost relative to the format seems wrong. People have cards, they want to play them, as long as those cards aren't causing fun to be lost why stop them from doing so?

Sure the pricetag is prohibitive, but that shouldn't mean we dissallow the people who decided to shell out the cash for these cards because WE don't want to pay for them.

As a primarily red and green (and somtimes white) mage, I know I wouldn't be paying for them anyway, and playing against these cards doesn't seem like it would be any less fun than any other draw or extra turn effect.


My final point, Every single card on the ban list save for these two cards is fairly unique in ability (counting the five moxen as one entity since thee are no OTHER cards that do what they do) regardless of cost. And each of them has a large potential for brokenness, and for being extremely unfun. Ancestral is really just another draw effect, and time walk is really just another extra turns effect. While they are Really Really Good (TM) they are far from needing to be banned.

even balance, which i would argue is the least broken card on the list, does something that no other card can compare to (save restore balance, which is only fair due to needing other cards to be any good at all), in addition to doing it at a cost that is not only small but easy to cast (only one white symbol) with no drawback...

I am not saying that either time walk or recall 'must' be unbanned, just that I really don't see philosophically a good justification for not letting people play with cards that don't ruin the game in a casual format...


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 6:50 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-03 3:54 pm
Age: Drake
Do you really have any comprehension whatsoever of what those cards do?

I frequently win the game on the back of a single Time Warp. Sometimes by delivering a game-ending attack multiple times in a row, but usually, it allows me to set up a combo without allowing the entire table a chance to answer. Being able to do so with three extra mana, or a full three turns earlier is huge.


While I usually avoid single-use draw effects (excluding X) in this format, they are not bad. Ancestral Recall would go in every blue deck without hesitation. In addition to that, I usually do not run Isochron Scepter, because I don't often have enough 'targets' for it, even though I use Mana Drain and Vampiric Tutor. Being able to stick a Recall on it though would make me run it despite anything else in the deck. Yes, that thing is better by far than even Mana Drain.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 6:58 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
Quote:
even balance, which i would argue is the least broken card on the list


This almost completely renders your entire post invalid, no offense. I'd argue Balance is a **tch to play against and perhaps one of the most necessary cards on the banned list.

You ask, if we have Time Stretch, Time Warp, Capture of Jingzou, etc... why is Time Walk banned?

I mean, c'mon. Take extra turns is heavily frowned upon already. Why would the RC make it easier than it already is?

Ancestral Visions is basically the same thing as Time Walk. There's no good reason to unban it when it there are so many more reasonably prices replacements.

You also need to realize that price IS and issue. Some cards are more well-known than others, I'm talking P9 here. There's really no reason to unban these cards. It doesn't help the format, and I'd argue keeping them banned helps it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 7:10 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The banned list is also here to help grow the format.

When folks come to look and see what they "should" expect to play against seeing the base high dollar cards as play able is something that would diswade folk from trying out the format.

That being said, play what you want in your play group. One of my groups allows folks to play the moxen as an example.

My opinion on timewalk is that is it undercosted to the point it's brokenable, any control deck can afford 2 mana however 5, 6, prowl ,9, 10 are much harder to get to stick.

Play it a bit come back with some data on why it's really the same as warp for commander and you'll get some traction ?


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 7:48 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-10 2:52 pm
Age: Drake
I guess i'll have to do just that then, as for balance being one of the least broken cards on the list i would argue it is, we have a bunch of one card combos, some insanely good fast mana effects, the most broken tutor in magic, a land that makes generals never really hit play for long, a land that goes in every strategy and can draw a card for 0 mana every turn, the single most offensive multiplayer card ever (limited resources), the two easiest ways to take infinite turns (panoptic mirror, time vault), a 1-1 life-card draw engine, the only card that actually eliminates every permanent in play, and then staff of domination, balance, painter's servant, kokusho, recall, and time walk.

every card aside from the last 6 is leagues more broken than the last six are, and of them recall, walk, balance, and staff are what I would say are the least deserving to be on the list, I am already advocating that recall and walk be off the list, and most people i know would rather play against balance than staff of domination eight days a week (myself included) so yes I do feel that balance is the next least broken card in the list after recall and time walk.

As for testing it and getting, and then posting, people's feelings on it... i guess i'll do just that. it'll take a while though.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 8:16 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Firloz wrote:
I guess i'll have to do just that then, as for balance being one of the least broken cards on the list i would argue it is, we have a bunch of one card combos, some insanely good fast mana effects, the most broken tutor in magic, a land that makes generals never really hit play for long, a land that goes in every strategy and can draw a card for 0 mana every turn, the single most offensive multiplayer card ever (limited resources), the two easiest ways to take infinite turns (panoptic mirror, time vault), a 1-1 life-card draw engine, the only card that actually eliminates every permanent in play, and then staff of domination, balance, painter's servant, kokusho, recall, and time walk.

every card aside from the last 6 is leagues more broken than the last six are, and of them recall, walk, balance, and staff are what I would say are the least deserving to be on the list, I am already advocating that recall and walk be off the list, and most people i know would rather play against balance than staff of domination eight days a week (myself included) so yes I do feel that balance is the next least broken card in the list after recall and time walk.

As for testing it and getting, and then posting, people's feelings on it... i guess i'll do just that. it'll take a while though.

No offense, but if you don't understand why Balance is broken, you're card eval skills need serious work.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 9:27 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-03 3:54 pm
Age: Drake
Simple question: Have you ever played against a Balance deck in any format? I'm not talking about just a deck with Balance in it (that's bad enough), but an actual Balance deck.

Here, I'll give you a hint of what it's like - I'm a competitive Legacy player that advocates taking Necropotence off the banned list, among others. Every once in a while, I will randomly suggest that Balance should also come off (or Yawgmoth's Broken & Win); usually, I cannot complete the sentence without busting out laughing. I honestly think the Legacy format would probably be better with Moxen over balance.

It is pretty easily among the 5 most powerful cards ever printed, and unlike Sol Ring, it scales exceptionally well in a multiplayer format.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 10:22 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-10 2:52 pm
Age: Drake
I cannot say I have played against legacy decks with four balances in them, I am saying that in edh every other card on the ban list (save possibly scepter i suppose, but that card is just plain unfun in practice) is much more degenerate in application from my experience.

The group i play with has six people, and between the six of us we have experimented with unbanning certain cards in edh for periods of time just to see what happened (we have not yet gotten around to Kokusho, Karakas, Biorhythm, Sway, Bargain, or moxen, and with me now having stuck out my neck by posting this we probably wont until we are satisfied one way or the other as to their brokenness) recall, and walk were each fine by themselves, though the one time we let someone put recall on an isochron scepter he ran away with that game simply on sheer card advantage. pretty much every card we tested was absolutely backbreaking and groanworthy with the exception of library, though after playing an entire day with the card we agreed that the fun due to novelty wore off quickly, and it was really hard to win if most of the players at the table opened with it and you didn't (though the same is very true of the everybody but one gets a sol ring games). Balance was obnoxious, but of the cards we tried out it was by and far the least obnoxious, even with annoying things like suspending a gargadon before playing it, it pretty rarely did more than wrath and nuke a hand or two, when it even resolved.

far less an egregious offender than ionalocking every opponent with servant, taking infinite turns with panoptic mirror, never letting people play lands with limited resources, or having a black lotus...

regardless, I will make it a point to at least have my group start testing with both recall and walk as our next one, and i will ask some friends to help me get more conclusive results..

In theory they should be fine, if good. If it turns out was just wrong I'll be eating some crow for even suggesting it, but i'm fine with that if it means that some cards that in theory are probably fine get unbanned. If nothing else the one member of the group who actually owns a set of power will likely enjoy getting to try out his toys, even if only on a temporary basis.

hopefully i'm right and he doesn't stomp us into the ground with them because they are in fact too good... if i'm wrong... well I guess having to play a few dozen unfun edh games will teach me to open my mouth...


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 11:04 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-03 3:54 pm
Age: Drake
Okay, I know your post is about Ancestral Recalland Time Walk, and I fully agree they are not as bad as Balance, but your repeated comments on Balance...

You really have no idea what you are talking about. At best, your group is apparently just bad deck builders.

Notice how Balance doesn't affect artifacts or enchantments? Ever seen a well-played Armageddon resolve? Well, Balance is like Armageddon. Except it works better when you have poor board position. And it stops opponents from recovering at all - kind of hard to when you have no hand. And it costs less to cast.


Saying Balance isn't as bad as an Iona lockout is bullshit. Balance is easier to set up, and at minimum, just as backbreaking and game ending. The only reason Lotus is any good in this format at all is because of how the Commanders work. Balance is just as bad as Limited Resources, and far less vulnerable than Panoptic Mirror.


End result, based on your comments so far regarding Balance, I will personally be disregarding any 'test data' coming from your play group. Even without that, it would need a lot more than just your group to gain even a remote position to unban Recall or Walk.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-10 11:46 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-10 2:52 pm
Age: Drake
i'm not saying to take mine or my group's word on it, try it out yourself, I will be doing the same, Balance is banworthy good, I have had different experiences than you with it when trying to see just how good. I will be providing any new insights on recall and walk that I or anyone in my group discover regarding them in fact being too good, or it being generally underwhelming for its expected power level.

If you have any comments that aren't involved with saying that I just don't understand how good balance is, or that are about whether or not you have managed to find anything interesting regarding recall or walk feel free to let me know. All i intended was to merely present the case that recall and walk MIGHT not be banworthy in Commander/EDH, I intend to investigate and see what results pop up. The only reason I bothered posting at all was because there was not an existing topic about it already (at least according to the sticky with the topics on unbanning the cards already on the list). I figured I would post my case, I did. I have been informed in this thread that it needs to get looked into and tested, I intend to, hopefully others will see this thread and do the same, and eventually a consensus will either be reached that A. Either one or both ARE in fact worthy of being banned and stay that way, or B. They really aren't so good that they need to be banned, and they get unbanned.

honestly I don't particularly mind either way, I don't intend to play them outside of this testing since My personal decks can't play them anyway. I do know that there are people who have the cards and want to play them, and if they don't need to be banned I don't see why those people shouldn't be allowed to play them.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-11 3:31 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Muspellsheimr wrote:
End result, based on your comments so far regarding Balance, I will personally be disregarding any 'test data' coming from your play group. Even without that, it would need a lot more than just your group to gain even a remote position to unban Recall or Walk.


Well boo to you too.

Balance was around for a long time, before even being restricted. Yes, of course it can be abused. Yes, it is a very powerful card.

Doesn't mean a group couldn't have fun with it in that group's meta.

The real issue is one of trust. If you can trust someone not to abuse something, to relax and have fun, then its all cool. When it gets cut-throat, all about tutors, recursion, regrowth, and comboing out before turn 4-5... Then I see no need for balance hate. Basically, EDH is now on the cusp of being well-explored, predictable, and unfortunately too competitive a format for my liking. As EDHs popularity grows, spikes and staples abound, and fun is shoved off the balcony. Zur is still allowed as a general.

And I do wish people were more careful: Ancestral Recall is banned, Recall is not.

Having lived through the days when 4 Balance was allowed in 60 card decks, and Type 1 MDKs in the form of 1st turn kills, its all just *shrug* a game. I could definitely bare with this game if P9, Balance, etc where back in play EDH. But I respect the RC's decision, and move with the times.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-11 3:36 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
These cards need to remain banned. The combination of power, price, and ubiquity means that every single deck with blue would want to run them, most people could not afford them, and the people that could afford them would have much better decks.

The fact that some people choose to spend hundreds of dollars on foils and dual lands doesn't mean we should substantially increase the disparity between hundred-dollar decks and thousand-dollar ones.

Mana cost is relevant. The fact that Time Walk and Ancestral Recall cost 3-4 mana less than "fair" alternatives is a perfectly reasonable justification for a ban. Here are all the cards I say would not be banned if they cost three more mana:
- Black Lotus
- The Five Moxen
- Any of the three lands
- Balance
- Recurring Nightmare
- Channel
- Limited Resources
- Upheavel
- Metalworker
- Tinker

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-11 4:08 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Perceived Barrier to Entry.

Time Walk, Ancestral et al are not banned for any balance reasons alone. We want the format to remain a social one, and if someone is playing at a table and slinging power, there might be a perception from passersby who say "wow, it'd cost a fortune to play this game".

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-11 5:20 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-01 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Quote:
but as one-shot effects they really aren't that much more powerful or efficient than most other cards in EDH.


There is so much wrong with this sentence I'm having trouble thinking straight.

First, Ancestral Recall IS broken due to a simple fact: Drawing three cards for only one blue mana is nuts. So nuts, that a card that does the exact same under very specific circumstances (Visions of Beyond) is going for $8. So nuts, that a card that mandates putting away two of the cards from your hand back onto your libarary (Brainstorm) is an auto-include in every blue deck. Card advantage is one of the most important things in EDH, and to sneak around the typically higher casting cost is bonkers.

And that's just the card on its own...any card that allows you to repeatedly play instants (likeIsochron Scepter) would turn it into a single-handed game winner.

Second, Time Walk...I don't know where this was lost on you. Think of how annoying cards like Time Stretch are. Now imagine being able to to that on turn TWO. Even better, Fork it! Or use Riku as your general. Or search it out with Personal Tutor. Or Anarchist. Or...well, you get the idea, I hope.

Three, you have missed one very simple fact associated with EDH: EDH is by its own definition a casual format. Casual formats allow proxies to be used unofficially. What happens when I can proxy both cards in my soon-to-be Riku deck? Can you imagine the sheer frustration of everyone at my table when I can take two extra turns and then draw 6 cards for virtually nothing? And I'm positive that there's even more ways to break those cards with generals.

Fourth, Balance is broken simply because artifact mana and damage sources aren't affected by it. Oh, and Land Tax turns it into "WW: Ramp ahead of everyone else"

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 Post subject: Re: Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk and the banned list
AgePosted: 2011-Jul-11 5:43 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-04 11:08 pm
Age: Drake
I find the relative power reasoning an acceptable method for running the ban list.

I find prohibitive cost to be a terrible, historically inaccurate, extremely inconsistent, and annoying argument/method for running a ban list. I wish people would stop crying foul regarding card prices.

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