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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-05 2:05 am 
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Also, I'd add some kind of rules, or at least guidelines, for playing in group settings versus playing 1v1.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-06 1:56 am 
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AND, even though this is a singleton format, I would HIGHLY recommend using a similar banned list as our 5-Color/250 brothers & sisters. I've been playing 250 for years. These cards are banned for a reason. Otherwise you might end up catching me playing holistic wisdom or parallel thoughts madness...



Also...on this same tangent, what are the rules for ante???? If there are none, I'm going to abuse the living hell out of Contract from Below like it was in 250. Banning it is a good thing...


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 2:00 am 
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Something I just thought of is damage from a general. In the "Play" section of the rules, #10 states "If a player has been dealt 21 points of combat damage by a particular General during the game, that player loses a game."

Now, that's all fine and dandy, but it's still a little ambiguous. I believe a sub-rule should should be added to describe other, non-combat damage from a general. For instance, if I Soul's Fire the opposing player, targeting my Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, is this "General damage" and is tallied from the 21 maximum points or is it the "other" kind of damage to subtracts from the opponents 40 life?

Or, what about a General's activated ability (say from Jaya Ballard, Task Mage)? Which kind of damage is this?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 2:59 am 

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Majus wrote:
Something I just thought of is damage from a general. In the "Play" section of the rules, #10 states "If a player has been dealt 21 points of combat damage by a particular General during the game, that player loses a game."

Now, that's all fine and dandy, but it's still a little ambiguous. I believe a sub-rule should should be added to describe other, non-combat damage from a general. For instance, if I Soul's Fire the opposing player, targeting my Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, is this "General damage" and is tallied from the 21 maximum points or is it the "other" kind of damage to subtracts from the opponents 40 life?

Or, what about a General's activated ability (say from Jaya Ballard, Task Mage)? Which kind of damage is this?


Combat damage is only damage dealt in combat directly and not from activated or triggered abilities of those general whether during combat of not.

So Jaya only deals General damage when she attacks; not when she uses her ability.

And you can't target Emrakul with Soul's Fire, she's pro-coloured spells remember.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 12:34 pm 
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Majus wrote:
I would suggest adding a rule that bans the use of other legendary creatures beyond the player's general. ... they seem to (imoh) take away from the concept of having a general...

I disagree. Also, this isn't really an FAQ.
Majus wrote:
Also, I'd add some kind of rules, or at least guidelines, for playing in group settings versus playing 1v1.

The basic MTG rules have this covered. There are no format-specific rules for 1v1 here.
Majus wrote:
AND, even though this is a singleton format, I would HIGHLY recommend using a similar banned list as our 5-Color/250 brothers & sisters. I've been playing 250 for years. These cards are banned for a reason. Otherwise you might end up catching me playing holistic wisdom or parallel thoughts madness...

Holistic Wisdom? Seriously? I'd like to see a REALLY good reason to ban that. I don't think anyone plays that in EDH.
Parallel Thoughts might as well say "Exile 7 cards from your library."
Majus wrote:
Also...on this same tangent, what are the rules for ante???? If there are none, I'm going to abuse the living hell out of Contract from Below like it was in 250. Banning it is a good thing...

Um... ante cards are all banned in Vintage and EDH uses Vintage legal cards so... no issues?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 2:45 pm 
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zimagic wrote:
And you can't target Emrakul with Soul's Fire, she's pro-coloured spells remember.


Oh, you're right. Derrrr....

Bad example, but the question/concept still remains.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Holistic Wisdom? Seriously? I'd like to see a REALLY good reason to ban that. I don't think anyone plays that in EDH.
Parallel Thoughts might as well say "Exile 7 cards from your library."


Why do you say that about Parallel Thoughts? Look, I understand that 5-Color and EDH are different, but Parallel Thoughts always equaled, "Let me just grab my win condition, draw the cards, play 'em, win." I fully understand that it's slow and vulnerable, but there are a multitude of ways to get around any of that.

And, Holistic Wisdom...I'll tell you what. Instead of making any kind of working debate in the form of text, I will instead build a deck that will abuse the hell out of it (when a little more funding comes in :roll: ). In 5-Color, assuming it wasn't banned, would be a must have. In EDH, you don't necessarily have to be focused around it albeit you have to be playing green. I'll leave the proof in the pudding as it were, then we'll have dialogue.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Um... ante cards are all banned in Vintage and EDH uses Vintage legal cards so... no issues?


You're right. I failed to see that bit.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
I disagree. Also, this isn't really an FAQ.


What are the reasons you disagree? Yes, not a FAQ, but I'll make it one. Why are players able to play more than one legendary creature in the context of electing one to be a general but playing other legendary creatures that detract from this?

Sid the Chicken wrote:
The basic MTG rules have this covered. There are no format-specific rules for 1v1 here.


The basic rules of MTG also don't say squat about EDH or sanctioning thereof.

Don't you think there should guidelines for the two types of play? Hmm, me think so. After all, glace over to the guidelines of the "Social" section. If there are merely suggestions on "how not to be a jerk," I think there should be other guideliens as well. Not saying that there should be a bifurcation of the existing suggested B&R list, but don't you think there should be at least hinting towards 1v1 versus group play?



My suggestions aren't meant to be offensive or in jest, however I will say that the existing rules are kind of ambiguous in some areas. Now, I am no rules lawyer, but I do think the rules should be elucidated.

A question that I have for anyone that has the answer. Is there a committee for the rules and/or the B&R list? If there is, who is on it, and what is the possibility I might be able to lend a hand?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 4:19 pm 
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Majus wrote:
Something I just thought of is damage from a general. In the "Play" section of the rules, #10 states "If a player has been dealt 21 points of combat damage by a particular General during the game, that player loses a game."

Now, that's all fine and dandy, but it's still a little ambiguous. I believe a sub-rule should should be added to describe other, non-combat damage from a general. For instance, if I Soul's Fire the opposing player, targeting my Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, is this "General damage" and is tallied from the 21 maximum points or is it the "other" kind of damage to subtracts from the opponents 40 life?

Or, what about a General's activated ability (say from Jaya Ballard, Task Mage)? Which kind of damage is this?
This rule is no more ambiguous than Angelsong or Scroll Thief.

The rule says, as you quoted, 21 points of combat damage. Combat damage is, as outlined in the Comp Rules, damage dealt by an attacking creature as part of the act of attacking during the combat damage step:

Quote:
310.2a Each attacking creature and each blocking creature will assign combat damage equal to its power. Creatures that would assign 0 or less damage this way don't assign combat damage at all.
310.2b An unblocked attacking creature that's attacking a player will assign all its combat damage to the defending player. An unblocked attacking creature that's attacking a planeswalker will assign all its combat damage to the planeswalker it's attacking. If the creature isn't currently attacking anything (if, for example, it was attacking a planeswalker that has left play), it will assign no combat damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 4:33 pm 
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Daf wrote:
This rule is no more ambiguous than Angelsong or Scroll Thief.

The rule says, as you quoted, 21 points of combat damage. Combat damage is, as outlined in the Comp Rules, damage dealt by an attacking creature as part of the act of attacking during the combat damage step


Right, but for all intensive purposes that doesn't explain why combat damage from a general is secular to damage from general's activated ability(ies). I know I've heard other player ask this question (and sometimes gripe). Great FAQ fodder :D

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Last edited by Majus on 2010-Nov-08 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 4:39 pm 
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The fact that non-combat damage isn't General Damage would be a reasonable FAQ.

The 5-colour banned list serves an entirely different purpose (and questioanbly well, at that) so there's very little likelihood of them being integrated.

There is a group of people who maintain both the rules and B&R list... and we also solicit input from trusted players and the community at large. The people invited to participate however have extensive experience with the format, the community here, and its vision.

majus wrote:
Elucidate [...] secular


Montoya wrote:
These words you keep using... I do not think they mean what you think they mean

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 4:41 pm 
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Majus wrote:
Daf wrote:
This rule is no more ambiguous than Angelsong or Scroll Thief.

The rule says, as you quoted, 21 points of combat damage. Combat damage is, as outlined in the Comp Rules, damage dealt by an attacking creature as part of the act of attacking during the combat damage step


Right, but for all intensive purposes that doesn't explain why combat damage from a general is secular to damage from general's activated ability(ies). I know I've heard other player ask this question. Great FAQ fodder :D

a) "Intents and purposes", not "intensive purposes".
b) Okay, I think I get your point, and that's a different question. You're not asking for the rule to be clarified (ie, "How does this work?"), you're asking for an explanation for the reasoning behind the rule (ie, "Why is it A and not A and/or B?").
If I had to guess (and since I'm not the RC and didn't create the rule, guessing is as close as I can get) I'd say it's because comboing out by tapping your General for X damage and then untapping it, and clearing the entire table, is neither interactive nor very fun (for everyone else at least; see every mono-blue deck ever). The 21 GCD rule is an alternate win condition for winning in the red zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 4:42 pm 
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What about the bit about the ability of playing other legendary creatures and Plainswalkers?

I know it's fairly opinionated, but still valid.


And, yes, I understand full well the meanings of the words that I use...

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Last edited by Majus on 2010-Nov-08 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 4:45 pm 
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Daf wrote:

b) Okay, I think I get your point, and that's a different question. You're not asking for the rule to be clarified (ie, "How does this work?"), you're asking for an explanation for the reasoning behind the rule (ie, "Why is it A and not A and/or B?").
If I had to guess (and since I'm not the RC and didn't create the rule, guessing is as close as I can get) I'd say it's because comboing out by tapping your General for X damage and then untapping it, and clearing the entire table, is neither interactive nor very fun (for everyone else at least; see every mono-blue deck ever). The 21 GCD rule is an alternate win condition for winning in the red zone.


Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear.

I'd have to disagree with you a bit about the interactive bit. There are cards that counter activated abilities (and, to my knowledge, are largely underplayed).

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 4:58 pm 
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Majus wrote:
I'd have to disagree with you a bit about the interactive bit. There are cards that counter activated abilities (and, to my knowledge, are largely underplayed).
There's ::counts quickly:: 10 all up, which are (with the exception of Bind*) all in Blue (aka the colour most likely to be trying to pull this shit off in the first place).
If you're setting things up ahead of time, White has Linvala, and Arrest/Faith's Fetters/etc.

I'm not counting Rust, Brown Ouphe or Ouphe Vandals because there are only 3 Legendary Artifact Creatures with activated abilities (Bosh, Karn, and Memnarch), none of which tap to activate.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 5:05 pm 
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General damage is restricted to combat damage because of generals like Hidesugu and Kaervek. This is a reasonable point to add to the FAQ on general damage.

Forum readers will note that they've been discussed in the past, and that the existence of "some answers" which would warp deck composition is considered a very poor reason to allow something in EDH.

With regards to whether "other legends" are allowed: it was already brought up earlier in this thread, I believe, and will likely be included, but no it won't be changed. If you need flavour validation for why it's allowed, call them "lieutenants" or "mercenaries."

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-08 7:43 pm 
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Roger that.

I wanna apologize beforehand if this was previously asked/answered/discussed. What does General damage end specifically at 21 and not say 20 or 25, etc? I do hear that question being asked every once in a while too.

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