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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 1:29 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
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Dick McUnshaven is a horrid name that should never, ever be written in bold letters.


YEEEAHH>.....Agreed


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 7:27 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-05 4:13 pm
Age: Wyvern
I have a sad little story of my own to add here, it took place yesterday at a weekly player-organized EDH tournament at a local card shop. It was the second of two rounds, and my table was not the "top table", meaning we weren't slugging it out for any kind of prize. There is, however, a "good sportsmanship" prize you can win as well, which will become relevant as the tale unfolds.

I'm playing Intet, the Dreamer; to my left is Sen Triplets; to his left is Mayael the Anima; to my right is Rhys the Redeemed.

We all get average starts, until turn seven comes around, and we have a few small creatures out and a few larger ones, namely Primeval Titan on Mayael's side, which has ramped him quite a bit over the last two turns. Everyone's tapped out, his turn comes around, and his hand is fixed thanks to Scroll Rack. Out of nowhere, he casts Mirari's Wake... then entwines Rude Awakening... then casts Insurrection for the game.

Now, this might not seem like a bad play to most people, but to me it illustrates a fundamentally bad attitude towards the format and a total lack of understanding of the "spirit of EDH". Why was this play bad? To reiterate, there were no competitive points or achievements at stake. Making this play instantly took him out of the good-sportsmanship running, obviously. The other two players, besides he and I, were new to the format. Finally, it was turn seven, less than fifteen minutes into a two-hour round, and he decided to just end a game that was otherwise just getting rolling.

In my opinion, this is socially one of the worst moves you can make in EDH. There was literally no benefit to his play other than to get his rocks off. People like this are just as bad to me as the guys in OP's post. While they may be excellent competitive players, they can't seem to grasp the idea of the "social contract" element of the format, and don't take into account that it's sometimes better not to just combo off as soon as possible. It alienates your fellow players and gives the format a bad name (to quote one newer player I've talked to, "one big circle jerk"). I've experienced this kind of thing too many times, and mostly it is defended with some variant of "it's past the mid-game, so anything goes".

It's made me realize that in this format, it's not what cards you play with; it's who you play cards with.
:facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 8:17 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
OK so he wins, you all shrug, get your creatures back (since Insurrection doesn't kill them off) and keep playing for second place? I know if I had those cards in my hand, and I was playing at a tournament - thus suggesting I was intending to play to the best of my deck - I'd do the same thing; probably with a shrug and a "We still have an hour and a half, want another game?"

Disclaimer: I don't play Rude Awakening or Insurrection. I think they're cheap. However, I would play them in a tournament setting, and I wouldn't take them out of my deck for round 2

Disclaimer 2: I wouldn't play in an EDH tournament ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 8:52 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:

Disclaimer 2: I wouldn't play in an EDH tournament ;)

Disclaimer 3: I wan't to give you a hug, or even shake your hand. Then sit down and play casual EDH with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 10:35 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
TaoJones, I side with the Mayael player in your story. You said that he had kept a Primeval Titan on the board for several turns. It's natural to expect the deck to make use of that extra mana. (Although it would only take nine lands to do what you described.) He had a bonkers hand, figured out how he could win the game with it, and nobody stopped him. EDH games are expected to take up to two hours because players are expected to prevent each other from winning, not because they are expected to prevent themselves from winning. I don't see anything unsportsmanlike about the plays Mayael made. Isn't it unhelpfully hyperbolic to say, "There was literally no benefit to his play other than to get his rocks off"? He won, and in a dramatic, surprising way. It didn't prevent you from shuffling up for another game. What harm was done?

If either Insurrection, Mirari's Wake, or Rude Awakening are more powerful than you think is fun, then I can understand why you were upset. I get upset when people overuse cards I think are unfun. But those three cards are pretty popular, and it's unrealistic to expect them to be absent from an EDH tournament. If there was no discussion beforehand about whether those cards were acceptable, or whether it was acceptable to win on Turn 7, then such restrictions were not part of the social contract, and Mayael deserves no disdain for ignoring them.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 11:01 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-05 4:13 pm
Age: Wyvern
For the record, I have no problem with any of the cards he used. I like power plays, but I guess combos that end the game in one turn after said player doing next to nothing (besides ramping and hand fixing) beforehand hit me in a personal spot. Let me clear up a couple of things:

Primetime was on the board two turns, not "a lot of turns".

In this tournament-esque structure, there is no second place, or third, or anything like that.

The tournament attracts a lot of people, and I have had problems convincing people to play casual games outside of the official "rounds", because most of them are used to competitive play and don't consider it worth their time. I can only speculate that it might have something to do with the apparent lack of a social contract.

This isn't the only card shop in the immediate area. Another is Armada Games, which manages to run tournaments and keep a very casual atmosphere. This other store, I've learned, is frequented by players that tend to be younger and more cutthroat, who also tend to informally boycott Armada because they get called out on this.

There are obviously exceptions, but this is a generalization I feel qualified to make after repeated visits. Nearly every single game I've played at this place ends with some one-turn-rocks-off combo or another. The red-zone decks end up stifled and feel absolutely pointless in the face of the power creep. I know for a fact I'm not alone in this assessment.

I feel like the point of my story was missed, I suppose that's my fault. The emphasis was on how what is often the best play strategically can be the worst play socially, and that there are some players who throw all social pretense out the window. I consider this to be one version of a "bad player".

Disclaimer: I don't speak for anyone at Armada, nor do I mean to publicly endorse or slander any one establishment over another. That's why I left this information out of my original post. It's a rant, plain and simple, which is why it's not on one of the other boards.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 11:10 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
When I was in Menomoniewwwwwwwwwwwwwww....I had the absolute "joy" of playing with a guy whos motto was

"I never play for fun."
I would litteraly ask "Does' anyone want to get some casual EDH going?"

And he would chime in "No, I don't play for fun." and of course, he's the local "expert" and by expert I mean:

1. Overprices his own cards.
2. Underprices (Down to 10-20%) other peoples cards.
3. Claims other "im pro player" garbage.
4. Has his own store in Eu Clare; that went out of business years ago because he is such a douche.


He offered me $10, for a foil Kor Haven, and $5 for a pile of cards that included:
Foiled: Crystal Shard, Cryptic Command, Magus of the Future, Grave Titan.
Non-foil: 2x frost titans (maybe 3, can't remember,) 87 artifact and vivid lands, lotus petal, lightning greaves, etc...

If there ever was a person I wish to die, it wouldn't be some genocidal mania, it would be this giant, overweight, "im a pro" douchebag.


/end rant.


Bad PLAYER.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-27 11:25 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
TaoJones wrote:
It's a rant, plain and simple, which is why it's not on one of the other boards.

Exactly the reason I don't approve of this thread.

There's my own rant. Sorry, folks. At least it was quick.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-28 1:57 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
I'd be more interested in reading how people royally screwed up their master plan than a bitching session but I get why some may need to externalize these experiences.

Speaking of bad plays:

Playing in a 6-man game I have Balthor and going around the table clockwise is Damia (precon), Ghave (precon), Kaalia (altered), Uril & Sharuum. We have a strict 1h15 time limit (we play at work) so occasionally you have to pull the trigger. Anyhow, the game is dragging on and no-one is close to being dead except me, who's been targetted by Magister Sphinx. We're getting close to time.

A Mesmeric Orb had filled the graveyards nicely and I have a Crypt of Agadeem in play with 13 Zombies to bring back. I've got Balthor in play. It's going down Zombie style.

I untap, draw a land & play it. The Crypt gives me lots of mana and I activate it, activate Balthor and bring everything back. I go to 5 from a Bogardan Hellkite, Thunder Dragon kills lots of stuff, every opponent loses 10+ life from my Zombies dying (Vengeful Dead) and I pass the turn!!

:facepalm:

We don't allow take-backs so that's it for my turn. I look at the Repay in Kind in my hand. :facepalm:

Damia plays Damia & put a Lightning Greaves on her to put me to 1 and Uril pings me with a Lightning Bolt.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-28 7:26 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
TaoJones wrote:
then entwines Rude Awakening... then casts Insurrection for the game.


THIS IS ONE OF THE COOLEST WINS EVER! I forgot what thread I was reading for a min as I read this and thought it was the "Cool plays" thread...he smashed everyone to death with LANDS!? Would have been better if it was Nature's Resurgence, but that play doesn't seem douchie to be at all. And I NEVER play competitive decks. I refuse to even play 1V1 because I find it too competitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-28 7:44 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-24 10:53 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: OH
After a game I played last night, I don't ever want to play 1v1 again!

It took 2 1/2 hours, my Tolsimir Wolfblood vs his Glissa, the Traitor.
To cut a long story short, he used Kuldotha Forgemaster to tutor up Platinum Angel and Darksteel Forge. Blargh. I had out activated Luminarch Ascension (and 18 angels), Storm Herd 19 2/2 Pegasus' (my general's passive +1/+1), and 12 3/3 Conqueror's Pledge (general + goldmane).
I had only ONE card in my deck that could bring him down... Oblivion Ring.

Buuut he tutored up Sword of Body and Mind and milled it out.


Nothing bad here, just annoying in 1v1. Makes me remember why I dont play them. His deck would have been right at home in a 3 or 4 player game and would have been a welcome challenge, but because I wasn't drawing ways to deal with it and he wasn't drawing ways to deal with me, it was just.. bashing our heads on a wall.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-28 9:51 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-04 11:08 pm
Age: Drake
TaoJones wrote:
I have a sad little story of my own to add here, it took place yesterday at a weekly player-organized EDH tournament at a local card shop. It was the second of two rounds, and my table was not the "top table", meaning we weren't slugging it out for any kind of prize. There is, however, a "good sportsmanship" prize you can win as well, which will become relevant as the tale unfolds.

I'm playing Intet, the Dreamer; to my left is Sen Triplets; to his left is Mayael the Anima; to my right is Rhys the Redeemed.

We all get average starts, until turn seven comes around, and we have a few small creatures out and a few larger ones, namely Primeval Titan on Mayael's side, which has ramped him quite a bit over the last two turns. Everyone's tapped out, his turn comes around, and his hand is fixed thanks to Scroll Rack. Out of nowhere, he casts Mirari's Wake... then entwines Rude Awakening... then casts Insurrection for the game.

Now, this might not seem like a bad play to most people, but to me it illustrates a fundamentally bad attitude towards the format and a total lack of understanding of the "spirit of EDH". Why was this play bad? To reiterate, there were no competitive points or achievements at stake. Making this play instantly took him out of the good-sportsmanship running, obviously. The other two players, besides he and I, were new to the format. Finally, it was turn seven, less than fifteen minutes into a two-hour round, and he decided to just end a game that was otherwise just getting rolling.

In my opinion, this is socially one of the worst moves you can make in EDH. There was literally no benefit to his play other than to get his rocks off. People like this are just as bad to me as the guys in OP's post. While they may be excellent competitive players, they can't seem to grasp the idea of the "social contract" element of the format, and don't take into account that it's sometimes better not to just combo off as soon as possible. It alienates your fellow players and gives the format a bad name (to quote one newer player I've talked to, "one big circle jerk"). I've experienced this kind of thing too many times, and mostly it is defended with some variant of "it's past the mid-game, so anything goes".

It's made me realize that in this format, it's not what cards you play with; it's who you play cards with.
:facepalm:


Do people get taken out of contention for the good-sportsmanship award for being sore losers?

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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-29 7:31 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-01 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Joz wrote:
He offered me $10, for a foil Kor Haven, and $5 for a pile of cards that included:
Foiled: Crystal Shard, Cryptic Command, Magus of the Future, Grave Titan.
Non-foil: 2x frost titans (maybe 3, can't remember,) 87 artifact and vivid lands, lotus petal, lightning greaves, etc...


...Why wasn't he ostracized and thrown out of the building? Where I game, deliberatly ripping people off gets you kicked out of the store, or at the very least ensures that nobody will want to game or trade with you. Take a stand, for crying out loud.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-29 8:53 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr. Freeze wrote:
Joz wrote:
He offered me $10, for a foil Kor Haven, and $5 for a pile of cards that included:
Foiled: Crystal Shard, Cryptic Command, Magus of the Future, Grave Titan.
Non-foil: 2x frost titans (maybe 3, can't remember,) 87 artifact and vivid lands, lotus petal, lightning greaves, etc...


...Why wasn't he ostracized and thrown out of the building? Where I game, deliberatly ripping people off gets you kicked out of the store, or at the very least ensures that nobody will want to game or trade with you. Take a stand, for crying out loud.



I did, I told him to fuck off (litteraly,) and then I just left and never returned since all the other players saw him as some sort of god.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad EDH players/games
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-29 10:06 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-19 1:49 pm
Age: Dragon
Joz wrote:
When I was in Menomoniewwwwwwwwwwwwwww....I had the absolute "joy" of playing with a guy whos motto was

"I never play for fun."
I would litteraly ask "Does' anyone want to get some casual EDH going?"

And he would chime in "No, I don't play for fun." and of course, he's the local "expert" and by expert I mean:

1. Overprices his own cards.
2. Underprices (Down to 10-20%) other peoples cards.
3. Claims other "im pro player" garbage.
4. Has his own store in Eu Clare; that went out of business years ago because he is such a douche.


He offered me $10, for a foil Kor Haven, and $5 for a pile of cards that included:
Foiled: Crystal Shard, Cryptic Command, Magus of the Future, Grave Titan.
Non-foil: 2x frost titans (maybe 3, can't remember,) 87 artifact and vivid lands, lotus petal, lightning greaves, etc...

If there ever was a person I wish to die, it wouldn't be some genocidal mania, it would be this giant, overweight, "im a pro" douchebag.


/end rant.


Bad PLAYER.

Sooo..

Foil Kor Haven has to be somewhere around 30-20, if not upwards of 50.. old foils that are popular in EDH are usually near 300%-200% their normal value

2 Frost Titans is probably 8-10 dollars alone.
Cryptic is between 10-25.
Magus of the Future probably is worth 2-4.
Grave Titan is 10-20.
Artifact lands are worth.. I want to say a dollar, between a 50 cents to a dollar each - Vivids are 2 dollars (Well, used to be, no idea of their value now), so assuming a 50/50 split, that's 40 dollars on artifact lands and 80 on vivids.
Petal is 4 dollars
Greaves was probably 5 dollars at the time of the trade.

Soooo.. He wanted 15 dollars for around 190-150 dollars in trade. Fucker tried to rob you blind. No wonder his shop went under.


My only recent bad player story a guy at my college who refuses to believe cards don't work the way they do, doesn't clip his nails and constantly smells of sweat, his breath always stinks as well. That's all kind of on top of.. cheating blatantly (looking through his library MID-GAME for no reason whatsoever) not believing cards do what they don't do (I mean, we all mis-read our cards from time to time, or even misunderstand what they do if they're old enough, but just disregarding everything..) and making 'table-talk' that mostly consists of obnoxiously giggling and mocking his opponents when he's winning. He'll yell "COUNTERED!" and do this snide little 'ha.. ha.. ha' every single time he counters something, even if someone is completely baiting him so they can resolve a spell that they actually care about.. And complaining loudly when he's losing. Oh, and if someone dares to play combo around him, he makes the person play it out. If said player demonstrates it properly - then points out the obvious, still. He considers people scooping out of a game for any reason to mean they lost and he won.. every single time. I don't think anyone here hates combo enough to sit through it and make the person go through the motions if they can demonstrate they know how it works..


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