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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-10 5:42 am 

Joined: 2013-Sep-05 6:26 am
Age: Drake
Note that the Vizier does not reveal the top card of your library to everyone, unlike cards that came before it. I remember Wizards saying in an article that Courser of Kruphix was a bit of a feel-bad card for the opponent if they couldn't answer what they knew was coming from the top of the Courser controller's library, so R&D were going to change that ability if they made it again.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-10 7:55 am 
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Cute trick with this guy: If you have a Theran God on top of your library you can cast it even if you don't have enough devotion

Question: Can you cast Bestow Creatures for their bestow cost with this? I strongly suspect not, but I've never been clear on when the bestow creatures count as Enchantments, Creatures, or Enchanment Creatures in the various zones. They're Enchantment Creatures in your library, so maybe you can; but if you cast it as an Aura, when does it lose the creature type, exactly?

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-10 12:54 pm 
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Viperion wrote:
...They're Enchantment Creatures in your library, so maybe you can; but if you cast it as an Aura, when does it lose the creature type, exactly?


Relevant CR References I found:

Quote:
702.102. Bestow
702.102a Bestow represents two static abilities, one that functions while the card with bestow is on
the stack and another that functions both while it’s on the stack and while it’s on the battlefield.
“Bestow [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost.” and
“If you chose to pay this spell’s bestow cost, it becomes an Aura enchantment and gains enchant
creature. These effects last until one of two things happens: this spell has an illegal target as it
resolves or the permanent this spell becomes, becomes unattached.” Paying a card’s bestow cost
follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2f–h.
702.102b If a spell’s controller chooses to pay its bestow cost, that player chooses a legal target for
that Aura spell as defined by its enchant creature ability and rule 601.2c. See also rule 303.4.
702.102c The check for whether a spell can legally be cast happens after its controller has chosen whether to pay its bestow cost; see rule 601.2e.
Example: Aether Storm is an enchantment with the ability “Creature spells can’t be
cast.” This effect doesn’t stop a creature card with bestow from being cast for its bestow
cost because the spell is an Aura enchantment spell, not an enchantment creature spell,
when the game checks whether the spell is illegal.
702.102d As an Aura spell with bestow begins resolving, if its target is illegal, the effect making it
an Aura spell ends. It continues resolving as a creature spell and will be put onto the battlefield
under the control of the spell’s controller. This is an exception to rule 608.3a.
702.102e If an Aura with bestow is attached to an illegal object or player, it becomes unattached.
This is an exception to rule 704.5n.


Quote:
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional
cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the
spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of
targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she
announces those targets. In some cases, the number of targets will be defined by the spell’s text.
Once the number of targets the spell has is determined, that number doesn’t change, even if the
information used to determine the number of targets does. The same target can’t be chosen
multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell. However, if the spell uses
the word “target” in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for
each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that
an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys
the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that
an object or player can’t be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each
become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or
zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they’ll wait to be put on the stack until
the spell has finished being cast.)
Example: If a spell says “Tap two target creatures,” then the same creature can’t be
chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says “Destroy
target artifact and target land,” however, can target the same artifact land twice
because it uses the word “target” in multiple places.

303.4. Some enchantments have the subtype “Aura.” An Aura enters the battlefield attached to an
object or player. What an Aura can be attached to is defined by its enchant keyword ability (see rule
702.5, “Enchant”). Other effects can limit what a permanent can be enchanted by.


Quote:
601.3. A player can’t begin to cast a spell unless a rule or effect allows that player to cast it. If that player is no longer allowed to cast that spell after completing its proposal, the casting of the spell is illegal and the game returns to the moment before the casting of that spell was proposed (see rule 720, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
601.3a If an effect allows a player to cast a spell as though it had flash only if an alternative or
additional cost is paid, that player may begin to cast that spell as though it had flash.
601.3b If an effect allows a player to cast a spell with certain characteristics as though it had flash,
that player may consider any choices to be made during that spell’s proposal that may cause it to
have those characteristics. If any such choices could cause it to match these characteristics, that
player may begin to cast that spell
.
Example: An effect says that you may cast Aura spells as though they had flash, and you
have a creature card with bestow in your hand. Because choosing the bestow ability’s
alternative cost causes that spell to become an Aura spell
, you may legally begin to cast
that spell as though it had flash.


My take (based on bolded sections), you could not cast a creature with bestow as an Aura from the top of library with Vizier/Horde. Particularly 601.3 seems to imply the inverse (if choosing bestow could make it an aura legal for flash in the example, the choosing bestow would make it not be a creature and not able to be cast from Library...)

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-10 1:01 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Cute trick with this guy: If you have a Theran God on top of your library you can cast it even if you don't have enough devotion

Question: Can you cast Bestow Creatures for their bestow cost with this? I strongly suspect not, but I've never been clear on when the bestow creatures count as Enchantments, Creatures, or Enchanment Creatures in the various zones. They're Enchantment Creatures in your library, so maybe you can; but if you cast it as an Aura, when does it lose the creature type, exactly?


Yes you can. As the spell is cast normally (not already using an alternative cost) you can make all the normal choices you would when casting from hand, including using alternate casting costs, additional costs, etc.

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Last edited by Spectrar Ghost on 2017-Apr-10 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-10 1:06 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Image

This is pretty good. It definitely doesn't go into every deck with blue, but it's probably the best draw instant printed so far in monoblue. Sure, there will be times when you are forced to cast it for X=2 and you'll wish it was Careful Consideration, but for every one of those there will be at least as many X=6 and you'll be a very happy blue player.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 2:34 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
Image

Welcome to Simic, Nissa! And I'm sure the second ability will be very tasty by Roon's lights...

Unfortunately, this means no new planeswalker characters this set. Bah.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 2:41 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
Skyknight wrote:
Image

Welcome to Simic, Nissa! And I'm sure the second ability will be very tasty by Roon's lights...

Unfortunately, this means no new planeswalker characters this set. Bah.

I want.

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The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 4:49 am 
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Joined: 2014-Sep-30 6:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Image
Yawn

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 5:56 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
DarksteelElephant wrote:
Image
Yawn


So from here on out we can assume green gods just generically grant trample and +2 power. Yawn.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 9:00 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Treamayne wrote:
My take (based on bolded sections), you could not cast a creature with bestow as an Aura from the top of library with Vizier/Horde. Particularly 601.3 seems to imply the inverse (if choosing bestow could make it an aura legal for flash in the example, the choosing bestow would make it not be a creature and not able to be cast from Library...)

I disagree - the Vizier says "creature CARD" not "creature SPELL". The CARD on top of your deck IS a creature, regardless of what the spell winds up being once you put it on the stack. Garruk's Horde works the same way. In fact the gatherer notes for the horde specifically say you may pay alternative costs.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 10:45 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
the Vizier says "creature CARD" not "creature SPELL".


Good point. That's why I included the relevant CR sections that I found (though there are likely more).

The answer to Viperion's question is there, just not necessarily relevant to this situation.

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 11:02 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
While it may not be the most inspired design ever, I really like the green god. Very exicted to test him in Selvala.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 11:07 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Wow... what an upgrade for Animar over Garruk's Horde.

I mean... yeah. Although I wouldn't exactly drop Horde; redundancy of such a good effect is never wasted.

The Horde always seemed to slow... By the time I was dropping it for GG the deck didn't need to play stuff off the top. But yeah, these are likely going to be redundancies rather than replacements.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 12:51 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bestow vs Vizier of the Menagerie:

All of the Bestow creatures have this note in their Gatherer entry:
Quote:
You don’t choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the spell after you've made this choice. For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash won’t allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant, but one that said you can cast Aura spells as though they have flash will.

That sure sounds to me like if you can cast a creature spell (which Vizier lets you do) you can cast these for their Bestow cost.

Dissenting opinions, anyone?

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-11 3:23 pm 
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We've got a White-shifted Parallel Lives, boys.
Image
Tokens now have what... 4 of these? Doubling Season, Parallel Lives, Primal Vigor, and now Anointed Procession?

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A few of my EDH Generals:
~ Mayael the Anima - Mayael the 5-Power Stompy
~ Marath, Will of the Wild - An EDH Teacher deck (Tribal Beasts)
~ Rhys the Redeemed - Tokens... Why do they keep coming!?
~ Bosh, Iron Golem - Legend of the Iron Giants
~ Damia, Sage of Stone - All Creatures Great & Small


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