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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 8:12 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
IIRC (and I'm probably not) phasing doesn't send the phased-out cards to exile. They're still on the battlefield but have the "phased out" status (which works like the "tapped" status) and the Comp rules define the Phased Out status as (and I summarise) unable to be interacted with in any way.

If they were exiled you could Pull from Eternity to get them unphased, and you can't.

But, I could easily be wrong

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 8:27 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
IIRC (and I'm probably not) phasing doesn't send the phased-out cards to exile. They're still on the battlefield but have the "phased out" status (which works like the "tapped" status) and the Comp rules define the Phased Out status as (and I summarise) unable to be interacted with in any way.

If they were exiled you could Pull from Eternity to get them unphased, and you can't.

But, I could easily be wrong


Phasing "exiled" before exile was a thing, and IIRC that was changed with the 6th Ed rules (wasn't that before equipment existed). Once they differentiated "removed from game" and phased, that trick ceased to exist. Now all phased out permanents will phase in before their controller's untap step, regardless of how it became phased out.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 8:28 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
DarksteelElephant wrote:
With this new rules change, a moment of silence for what was the only remaining way to get rid of commanders:

Image

I thought the rules changes for phasing happened years ago?


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 10:07 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-19 12:15 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
specter404 wrote:
I so very much want this card:
Image


Does anyone think this is good enough to see play in Legacy?

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 10:22 am 
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Joined: 2014-Sep-30 6:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
OK, so here is how the combo worked. If an aura or equipment is attached to a permanent that phases out, it phases out with it. When that permanent phases back in, so does the attached card. Currently, the rules are that a token that phases out ceases to exist, so anything attached to it never phases back in. However, they are changing the rules to allow tokens to phase back in, thus slightly reducing the amount of dumb combos that will never work that can be posted for the lols. A tragic loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 12:58 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
DarksteelElephant wrote:
OK, so here is how the combo worked. If an aura or equipment is attached to a permanent that phases out, it phases out with it. When that permanent phases back in, so does the attached card. Currently, the rules are that a token that phases out ceases to exist, so anything attached to it never phases back in. However, they are changing the rules to allow tokens to phase back in, thus slightly reducing the amount of dumb combos that will never work that can be posted for the lols. A tragic loss.

I'm aware of how the combo worked. I'm saying I thought those changes were made years ago, and not recently.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 7:57 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Marit Lage wrote:
DarksteelElephant wrote:
OK, so here is how the combo worked. If an aura or equipment is attached to a permanent that phases out, it phases out with it. When that permanent phases back in, so does the attached card. Currently, the rules are that a token that phases out ceases to exist, so anything attached to it never phases back in. However, they are changing the rules to allow tokens to phase back in, thus slightly reducing the amount of dumb combos that will never work that can be posted for the lols. A tragic loss.

I'm aware of how the combo worked. I'm saying I thought those changes were made years ago, and not recently.


It looks like the critical parts of it still work since phased out tokens still vanish. (Unless there's something else that would've already broken it?) From the comp rules as of Hour of Devastation:

Quote:
702.25f When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out “indirectly.” An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won’t phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it’s attached to.

702.25k Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.

704.5d If a token is phased out, or is in a zone other than the battlefield, it ceases to exist.


R.I.P. silly combo, we barely knew you. (I certainly didn't, this is the first card with phasing I'll ever own.)

There will be a public wake featuring a formalised rules debate around how it worked, followed by the combo being used on itself to phase it out forevermore.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 10:02 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Bruticus wrote:
What rules change darksteelElephant? Also does anyone know if MAIRSIL, THE PRETENDER can use abilities while not on the battlefield, like reassembling skeleton?

It's a convoluted combination of rules by which you could phase out a token that had equipment on it, the equipment would get confused and be unable to do anything:
1: phasing used to remove the cards from the game aka exile
2: if a token phases out it ceases to exist because exile.
3: if an aura or equipment is attached to something that phases out, the aura/equipment also phases out, this is called phasing out indirectly
4: Something that phases out indirectly does not phase in by itself, it phases in along with the thing it is attached to
5: A token with equipment attached which phases out never phases back in because it's ceased to exist, so the equipment never phases back in either.

Marsil will not be able to use abilities when it's not in play.

Ahh, I see. Marsil doesn't say "as long as he's on the battlefield" like necrotic ooze though, do you think they took that off to save room on the card?

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-10 10:25 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bruticus wrote:
Ahh, I see. Marsil doesn't say "as long as he's on the battlefield" like necrotic ooze though, do you think they took that off to save room on the card?


That would have been helpful to include for clarity's sake, but yeah, it looks like it would've been left off because of word room. We'll hopefully see a gatherer ruling about it.

I double-checked to reassure myself: Mairsil's ability definitely isn't a characteristic-defining ability and it meets none of the other exceptions in rule 112.6, so his/her(?) ability will only function on the battlefield. Marsil can't use abilities that depend on her being in another zone (like the graveyard or your hand) since the ability that would give her those abilities isn't functioning.

So: on the battlefield, Mairsil has potentially lots of functioning abilities. Outside the battlefield she has no functioning abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-11 1:39 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
decklists are up

no high value reprints but lots of fun stuff!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2017-08-11

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-11 2:03 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
The official release notes clarified the phasing change:

"If a token is phased out, it will phase in as your next untap step begins. This is a change from previous rules."


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-11 2:14 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
scatteredsun wrote:
decklists are up

no high value reprints but lots of fun stuff!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2017-08-11

No Nacatl War Pride? Shame. Shame. Shame.
spacemonaut wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
DarksteelElephant wrote:
OK, so here is how the combo worked. If an aura or equipment is attached to a permanent that phases out, it phases out with it. When that permanent phases back in, so does the attached card. Currently, the rules are that a token that phases out ceases to exist, so anything attached to it never phases back in. However, they are changing the rules to allow tokens to phase back in, thus slightly reducing the amount of dumb combos that will never work that can be posted for the lols. A tragic loss.

I'm aware of how the combo worked. I'm saying I thought those changes were made years ago, and not recently.


It looks like the critical parts of it still work since phased out tokens still vanish. (Unless there's something else that would've already broken it?)

The change happened years ago, going in the other direction. Phased out tokens were not removed originally, because they weren't in a different zone. This was determined to be counter-intuitive by WotC (I don't agree), so they wrote 704.5d to force the interaction to happen the way they thought it should.

In the C17 release notes, under the section for Teferi's protection, a new process for equipment and auras has been described:
Quote:
  • Each Aura and Equipment that phases out attached to a permanent that's phasing out phases in with that permanent and still attached to it.
  • Each Aura and Equipment you control attached to a permanent that isn't phasing out phases in attached to that permanent if it can still be attached to that permanent. If not, it phases in unattached. An Aura that phases in unattached will be put into its owner's graveyard as a state-based action. The same is true with Auras attached to players.

EDIT: rereading this, I'm not so sure it's a change. I thought it meant that permanents indirectly phased out will now always phase back in, unattached if their original object is gone, but it seems to just be referring to directly phased out attached permanents.

Additionally, the token rule has been reversed:
Quote:
  • If a token is phased out, it will phase in as your next untap step begins. This is a change from previous rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-11 2:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
scatteredsun wrote:
decklists are up

no high value reprints but lots of fun stuff!

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/ar ... 2017-08-11

Yeah, this is actually pretty good. I don't typically want to sleeve up decks without playing them first, but I'm excited to see how they play out.

Also, I'm going to have to start making a decision of what I'm going to do with all these 5-color dragons...just make two more? :facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-11 3:04 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-25 1:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Disappointed at only two cards with new art: Apprentice Necromancer and Blood Tribute.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-11 4:52 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Be sure to be aware of this line of rulings for Mairsil:
Quote:
If Mairsil has an equip ability, activating it won't cause anything to happen. Mairsil doesn't become attached to a creature. They may remain friends.


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