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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-20 2:27 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
topramen wrote:
But I'll be fine with whatever is printed as long as it isn't slivers. That needs no more support.


You can shush your face, Zombies have more tribal support than any other tribe now... by that alone they shouldn't see any more lord effects until some of the other prominent ones catch up. Thats right, Zombies have more lord (plus to power and toughness) effects than elves or goblins or slivers or merfolk. When you factor in that they're in a ratio of what seems like every other set, at least in some capacity, you know that their potential will continue to be pushed to get more disgusting.

Slivers can't get more love in constructed without the core sets being a catch all excuse to print them. They only get more love in supplemental products like this. If zombies get a deck and slivers dont, I'll lose it. Wouldn't make sense or be fair to any of the other tribes that need support to catch up and compete


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-20 3:24 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
ermagherd new leaked commander?
Image



Just kidding, I'm just hoping for something along those lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-20 6:25 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-24 2:16 pm
Age: Dragon
The only tribe I want to play that I don't think has enough support are elementals. I want Horde of Notions toolbox to be a thing but it is just too janky for me. I'd also like to see faerie if only to get better card art for Oona, Queen of the Fae.

The last thing I want are a bunch of lord legends. I look at Neheb, the Worthy and I have to ask myself how many minotaurs are really worth running and how many would I be running just because it's this guy's deck. A lord doesn't automatically make a tribe good. A lord that has part of it's power in buffing a subpar tribe is going to be bad one way or the other. Either because of it's army or part of it's power is wasted if you don't use it.

I'd rather see Oona, Queen of the Fae or Sliver Queen type cards that bring their own army for the underrepresented types. There are mythical creatures that I love like griffins and phoenixes but wouldn't want to run "tribal" unless they had one of these kinds of legends. Even then I don't know if I'd call them tribal. I don't know, I'm rambling.

Edit: I want a Griffin heading an artifact creature "tribe". How did I forget this?


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-20 7:33 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Nazotchi wrote:
The only tribe I want to play that I don't think has enough support are elementals. I want Horde of Notions toolbox to be a thing but it is just too janky for me.

Elementals could use more cards, but I don't find them to be unplayably janky. It's a very middle-of-the-road deck, neither weak nor super strong. My particular build incorporates a lot of Dredge and Dredge-like cards, which works out pretty well actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-20 7:43 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Nazotchi wrote:
The only tribe I want to play that I don't think has enough support are elementals. I want Horde of Notions toolbox to be a thing but it is just too janky for me. I'd also like to see faerie if only to get better card art for Oona, Queen of the Fae.

The last thing I want are a bunch of lord legends. I look at Neheb, the Worthy and I have to ask myself how many minotaurs are really worth running and how many would I be running just because it's this guy's deck. A lord doesn't automatically make a tribe good. A lord that has part of it's power in buffing a subpar tribe is going to be bad one way or the other. Either because of it's army or part of it's power is wasted if you don't use it.

I'd rather see Oona, Queen of the Fae or Sliver Queen type cards that bring their own army for the underrepresented types. There are mythical creatures that I love like griffins and phoenixes but wouldn't want to run "tribal" unless they had one of these kinds of legends. Even then I don't know if I'd call them tribal. I don't know, I'm rambling.

Edit: I want a Griffin heading an artifact creature "tribe". How did I forget this?


You have only to look at the Ulrich thread to see most agree with this sentiment. Lords should be lords, and rarely should they be legendary. Good tribal commanders integrate the tribe, but aren't *just* lords (if giving any tribal bonus at all) and should do things on their own.

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
You can shush your face, Zombies have more tribal support than any other tribe now... by that alone they shouldn't see any more lord effects until some of the other prominent ones catch up. Thats right, Zombies have more lord (plus to power and toughness) effects than elves or goblins or slivers or merfolk.


Lord effects are more than bonuses to power and/or toughness. Almost every sliver is a lord, since a lord is a creature that grants bonuses and/or abilities to members of their tribe. Just as Eladamri, and Zombie Master are lords without granting any bonus to power or toughness; Battering Sliver, et al are essentially lords.

That said, I agree Zombies have been quite over-done in the last few years. They even get Generals they don't deserve (Nekusar is a <censored> Skeleton you <censored> twits, look at the <censored> picture...). But Saskia showed that WOTC is still creature-type challenged. That's why my hopes are high, but expectations low for this product. Not that it matters, MTGO will get <censored> again.

Edit:

Segrus wrote:
Nazotchi wrote:
The only tribe I want to play that I don't think has enough support are elementals. I want Horde of Notions toolbox to be a thing but it is just too janky for me.

Elementals could use more cards, but I don't find them to be unplayably janky. It's a very middle-of-the-road deck, neither weak nor super strong. My particular build incorporates a lot of Dredge and Dredge-like cards, which works out pretty well actually.


Elementals have quite a bit of support and makes a good RG, URG or WUBRG deck. Now, as a toolbox-type control deck.... maybe not enough 187 elementals just for that build alone.

Elemental Counts:
406 on theme cards for all colors

Commander Colors and counts:
B - 32
R - 140
G - 90
BG - 125
RG - 235
URG - 310
RGW - 271
WUBRG - 406

Land (all colors): 14
Non-elemental creatures with the Elemental creature type in text box: 14
Color - Creature - Non-creature (with the Elemental creature type in text box)

Count by colors and combos
C - 1 - 1
W - 18 - 5
U - 55 - 6
B - 27 - 3
R - 124 - 14
G - 81 - 7
WU - 3 - 1
WB - 2 - 0
UB - 0 - 0
UR - 5 - 3
BR - 14 - 1
BG - 5 - 0
RG - 7 - 0
RW - 5 - 0
GW - 7 - 0
GU - 2 - 2
URG - 2 - 0
RGW - 1 - 0
GWU - 1 - 0
GUB - 1 - 0
WUBRG - 2 - 0

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HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-20 12:31 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Treamayne wrote:
Lord effects are more than bonuses to power and/or toughness. Almost every sliver is a lord, since a lord is a creature that grants bonuses and/or abilities to members of their tribe. Just as Eladamri, and Zombie Master are lords without granting any bonus to power or toughness; Battering Sliver, et al are essentially lords.

That said, I agree Zombies have been quite over-done in the last few years. They even get Generals they don't deserve (Nekusar is a <censored> Skeleton you <censored> twits, look at the <censored> picture...). But Saskia showed that WOTC is still creature-type challenged. That's why my hopes are high, but expectations low for this product. Not that it matters, MTGO will get <censored> again.


I suppose it's true in that sense that Slivers have more lord effects for keywords, but outside of niche cases where someone either doesn't have some of the more recent Slivers or is running some 2-3 color sliver deck, many of the higher casting cost Slivers just aren't playable. Battering Sliver for example is rough when Horned Sliver or Shifting Sliver are better options.

I like redundancy as much as the next person, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm itching for a Sliver that grants Hexproof. Plus many of the other unexplored options like flash + counter (ex. Mystic Snake), bounce on etb, Fight, etc. Many of the 2 color slivers have unique effects like Harmonic Sliver, but ones like Cautery Sliver, Dementia Sliver and Frenetic Sliver are all but useless. I'm really itching for some multicolor rare Slivers that open up more options.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 3:05 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Ridiculous combo idea:

Maybe a sliver deck will be "reprints" of legenrdary creatures.

Drownyard Sliver...1WB, Slivers have Hexproof, makes a 1/1 sliver tapped and attacking, exile at end of combat.

Imposter Sliver...2UU, As this comes into play choose a creature. Imposter Sliver is a copy of the chosen creature, but is a Sliver in addition to its other types.

Korzoda Sliver...BBGG Each sliver gets +1/+1 for each sliver card in your graveyard. 1BG, Sacrifice a sliver: Each opponent loses life equal to the sacfrificed creature's power.

Fomori Sliver...1WUR Slivers you control get +3/+3 and "At the beginning of combat on your turn, choose an opponent at random. This creature attacks that opponent if able."

Sliver God...WWUUBBRRGG Sliver God isn't a creature unless you control 10 or more creatures. As long as Sliver God is a creature, slivers you control have protection from everything.

...I didn't say it was a good idea...

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Izoni, Thousand Eyed (Elf Tribal-ish)
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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 6:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I'm hoping for a clone tribal deck

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 6:49 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't really like tribes... :|

I feel like it forces a certain deck and a lot of the cards end up being same across different versions of the deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 11:46 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
I don't really like tribes... :|

I feel like it forces a certain deck and a lot of the cards end up being same across different versions of the deck.


Well, depends on the point of view, and the General being discussed. When Uril was the only legendary beast in Magic, I would say my Beast Tribal was definitely different from every other Uril deck I saw.

Basically, as previously discussed, it comes down to the General in question. If that general forces a tribal theme (Seshiro the Anointed for example) then I would agree that various decks have 75+% commonality. But, when the general(s) are broader then you see more variance. Another example, I have seen quite a few "Vampire" EDH decks in the last 10 years, and none of them were like my Garza Zol deck (even the other Garza decks).

_________________
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HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 1:54 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
MrCool wrote:
I don't really like tribes... :|

I feel like it forces a certain deck and a lot of the cards end up being same across different versions of the deck.


Well, depends on the point of view, and the General being discussed. When Uril was the only legendary beast in Magic, I would say my Beast Tribal was definitely different from every other Uril deck I saw.

Basically, as previously discussed, it comes down to the General in question. If that general forces a tribal theme (Seshiro the Anointed for example) then I would agree that various decks have 75+% commonality. But, when the general(s) are broader then you see more variance. Another example, I have seen quite a few "Vampire" EDH decks in the last 10 years, and none of them were like my Garza Zol deck (even the other Garza decks).

Good point. I think multi colored tribal also really opens up options as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-22 7:33 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I just want to say that if Garza Zol vampires is one of the 4 decks I will not be upset. I've wanted to run a Garza vamp tribal deck for a while but didn't want to invest in the cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-24 12:34 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
I just want to say that if Garza Zol vampires is one of the 4 decks I will not be upset. I've wanted to run a Garza vamp tribal deck for a while but didn't want to invest in the cards.


That would be sweet. I always liked Zol and there are red vampires now so..:)

On a purely selfish note, I'd like WIzards to take this opportunity to print absentee tokens like Graveborn, 3/3 flying spirits, camarids, the list goes on. I'm a little ambivalent on this but there's lots of potential for some cool decks, so bring it on!

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-24 1:23 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
CrazyPierre wrote:
niheloim wrote:
I just want to say that if Garza Zol vampires is one of the 4 decks I will not be upset. I've wanted to run a Garza vamp tribal deck for a while but didn't want to invest in the cards.


That would be sweet. I always liked Zol and there are red vampires now so..:)

On a purely selfish note, I'd like WIzards to take this opportunity to print absentee tokens like Graveborn, 3/3 flying spirits, camarids, the list goes on. I'm a little ambivalent on this but there's lots of potential for some cool decks, so bring it on!

I'm in full support of both these points!


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2017 (Tribal)
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-24 12:49 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
I just want to say that if Garza Zol vampires is one of the 4 decks I will not be upset. I've wanted to run a Garza vamp tribal deck for a while but didn't want to invest in the cards.


Considering that there are likely going to be 14 or so new cards per deck, it's unlikely that they would feature a card that is not only old enough that the abilities/power of the card aren't exciting as compared to recent cards (power creep is a thing), but wouldn't showcase what the deck can do differently from what is already possible.

Instead, I would imagine that it would me much more likely that Vampires will finally get the Mardu general they need to incorporate the R, BR, and WB vampires that we've been given in recent years. Outside of the occasional, very focused (on mill) options like Mirko Voss and Szadek in UB, I don't see them including U in a Vampire themed deck.

Grixis also already has Jeleva and Garza Zol as options, not likely to make another one. Given all of that, Garza Zol only seems likely in a 4 color deck, which they just did recently.

That all being said, my current predictions are:

Abzan Elves - Still lacking a WBG Elf legend to include all the Elf cards since Lorwyn.
Mardu Vampires - Still lacking a WBR Vampire Legend to include all the Vampire cards since Innistrad.
5 Color Slivers - Perfect time to give additional options since the creature type isn't likely to get any support outside of supplemental product. If not now, then when?
Mystery Tribe - Something that hasn't gotten support where it's inclusion in the 4 tribal decks would be considered likely. WotC has made mention of "At least one deck that people won't see coming" Maybe some sort of WUx Spirit deck?


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