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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-19 11:05 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Also, the “just play strip mine” argument is invalid because in a multiplayer format like EDH, Strip Mine is pretty serious card *disadvantage*. You play 1 land (that taps for colorless) and sac it to destroy 1 land from one of your 3+ opponents. And since Karakas has probably bounced your general once or twice before you Strip Mine it, you are both down in cards and tempo.

Any card that forces you to maindeck cannibal lands AND save them for it shouldn’t be in the format.

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III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-19 12:03 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Also, the “just play strip mine” argument is invalid because in a multiplayer format like EDH, Strip Mine is pretty serious card *disadvantage*. You play 1 land (that taps for colorless) and sac it to destroy 1 land from one of your 3+ opponents. And since Karakas has probably bounced your general once or twice before you Strip Mine it, you are both down in cards and tempo.

Any card that forces you to maindeck cannibal lands AND save them for it shouldn’t be in the format.

This would be true if it weren't a card you should be running already. Do you also not run things like Counterspell, Naturalize and Swords to Plowshares because they're card disadvantage also?


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-19 2:51 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You should play answers, this is a game of answers, threats, and resources. However, there should be a resource cost associated with playing an answer or a threat.

Karakas is an answer without a cost. So "you should play strip mine" is a true statement, but it is not a statement that negates the issue with Karakas. Playing strip mine costs you a valuable resource, a coloured land source. Opening on a hand with strip mine is a disadvantage because it can stifle your early progression by limiting the cards you can play in the first few turns to those with less strict mana requirements. Karakas does not.

Power, ubiquity, undercosted. Three pillars of the ban list criteria. Three things Karakas is.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-22 5:23 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
it's only an instant lose for decks that rely on their general and there isn't a more threatening general in play (or one that the owner wishes to protect).

well, if your commander isnt threatening enough for me to use karakas now, but i do to someone else... i use it on yours next untap. recasting every other turn might be fine if you have an etb effect like venser. but if yours isnt threatening then i am just using it on someone else even more often.


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-24 10:00 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
People are focusing very narrowly here on the worst-case scenario for Karakas: that is, the Karakas player targets only one opponent whose deck relies on its commander heavily but who is not running ways to protect that commander from instant-speed removal or permanent-based removal.

That really isn't the only thing you can do with Karakas.

You can keep it up to protect your own commander from removal, especially mass removal. In a white deck that wants to run sweepers, this is basically a one-mana tax on each to keep your commander's cost from spiraling out of control.

It can be used as a political tool to punish players whose decks are either above the curve for the table or who are having an exceptionally good game. Aiming removal at the guy who's ahead is just common sense.

It can be used to recycle commanders with ETB abilities or cast triggers.

People tend to run plenty of non-commander legendary creatures in their decks, any of which may present a better target for Karakas than someone's commander.

I don't think Karakas is more obnoxious than, say, Attrition, it just costs more dollars and takes up a land slot instead of a spell slot. Even then, nonbasic land hate is cheap (money-wise and opportunity cost-wise), mostly colorless, and should be run regardless of what else your deck is doing and regardless of whether it represents card disadvantage.

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Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-24 3:02 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Aggro_zombies wrote:
I don't think Karakas is more obnoxious than, say, Attrition, it just costs more dollars and takes up a land slot instead of a spell slot. Even then, nonbasic land hate is cheap (money-wise and opportunity cost-wise), mostly colorless, and should be run regardless of what else your deck is doing and regardless of whether it represents card disadvantage.

Attrition takes actual resources to use every turn.
Yes answers exist, but so are creature answers and some creatures are banned. What happens to the game while people seek out that removal?

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-24 3:40 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I do find it really odd that someone defending Karakas happens to have this in his sig:

kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.
Minus the "obviously intended for commander" part, and this is exactly what the problem with Karakas is.

Hell, I would even go as far as to say that Karakas is the best card in the format, hands down. It's an incredibly powerful effect for effectively no opportunity cost. Barring some extremely color-heavy deck that literally cannot afford to have non-dual lands, there is not a single deck in the format that is not improved by slotting out a land (most likely a basic Plains) for it.

The comparison to Attrition is laughable. Attrition isn't even good in a pretty large number of decks, and it has a massive cost to it. And I think everyone here, you included, knows that there is a massive difference between a spell slot and a land slot.

I mean, there could not be a better example of a card that more poorly interacts with the structure of Commander than a land which is almost strictly better than a Plains and bounces a legendary creature for free. Add in the fact that its cost is already pretty massive and would only go up if unbanned, and there is zero reason to think this card being legal would be anything but a blight on the format.

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III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-24 4:26 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Karakas is nowhere close to the best card in the format, in a vacuum or in context. I mean, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are both legal, to say nothing of color- or deck-specific options. In the context of white decks, you have plenty of cards that are more powerful and/or annoying depending on your commander.

Karakas is cheap interaction, which casual Commander players tend to hate, but it is nowhere close to being the most powerful version of cheap interaction in the format either. It probably wouldn't even be the best card in Stax since it's so narrow as a control tool.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-25 6:50 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mana Crypt actively damages its controller, both it and Sol ring are weak in color-heavy lists, both take up a spell slot, and both of them are pretty bad draws late game. Karakas has nothing remotely like that. Its only real opportunity cost is that it will get hit by Ruination whenever a Plains won't. Any deck that an afford to run least one basic plains (or for that matter, virtually any colorless utility land) can afford to run Karakas in its stead and lose virtually nothing. And it is of roughly equal power at all points in the game, never becoming a dead draw.

There are few cards that are as ubiquitous as it, and among those that are none of them are even close to its power level.

Furthermore, the point about "well, you can use it to protect your own general, reuse ETB effects, etc" is the exact sort of player mentality that lead to the abuse of Sylvan Primordial and Primeval Titan and even Sundering Titan. More importantly, just like Primeval Titan only being used to search out basics is still too good of a card, Karakas never being used in a degenerate way is also still an incredibly powerful effect for effectively zero cost. Add in the fact that it has a low print run and is on the reserved list, and it being unbanned would skyrocket its price to the point where it's worth banning on PBtE anyway.

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Current Generals:
III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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 Post subject: Re: Unbanning Karakas
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-26 4:33 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Add in the fact that it has a low print run and is on the reserved list, and it being unbanned would skyrocket its price to the point where it's worth banning on PBtE anyway.

Just wanted to point out that Karakas isn't on the RL. It was reprinted both as a judge foil and in Eternal Masters. Unbanning it in Commander would cause its price to spike significantly though.


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