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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-26 11:07 pm 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
51 is 3x17.

307 is a prime number.


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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 2:04 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
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Full spoiler is up, and I have a few thoughts.

First of all the internet seems to be pretty miffed about the poor quality of the reprint choices. I'm not going to dispute that - aside from Avenger of Zendikar there is not a lot to love in the reprints this time around. There are some good choices, sure, but almost nothing to really wow anyone and nothing that's going to make any older $20+ cards drop in price.

So it's a FAIR complaint, for sure. HOWEVER... is this set somehow the first Commander release ever for most of the internet? Because honestly it's pretty much on par with most Commander releases. There have been better years, yes, but most of the time we don't get much in the way of super hype-worthy reprints anyway.

But, more importantly, the commander sets have ALWAYS been about the new, exclusive, commander-set-only cards! And, as WotC has actually been getting BETTER at printing new, format-exclusive cards, that is only more true now than it ever was.

Seriously, just go look at the original commander decks from 2011 or whenever it was. What cards introduced in that set do you still play today? I betcha your answer is going to be Scavenging Ooze and some number of Legendary Creatures. Almost nothing in C11 was actually good besides the new commanders - most of which were actually kind of overpowered and too heavily pushed - and Scooze*. And, aside from a few lands/mana rocks, almost everything that they print at common and uncommon turns out to be TRASH, but in the last couple of years even those have gotten at least slightly better.

Then there's the Flusterstorm/True Name issue which they seem to be doing their best to avoid now, which is a good thing. Teferi's Protection is a bit annoying as I'd love to have like 5x to 8x of those, but maybe it'll see a reprint in a Masters set or something.

Anwyay, point is, the new cards are where it's at, not the reprints. Sure for people overly obsessed with the concept of "EV" this set is not the best thing ever. But as someone who usually buys one full set of the decks themselves, then buys 3x or more of every new card that seems playable later, C17 has been a nightmare. EVERYTHING from that fucking set is $5+. Even some of the uncommon artifacts are like $10+! I still have basically 1x of everything except like 2 cards that I randomly snagged at an LGS for cheap.

Sure, that is probably due to the Tribal aspect which seems to REALLY resonate with people, but still. Had I known back then, and had I been able to afford it, I would have just bought more of the full decks and I'd still probably have spent less than I would just buying everything as singles.

And, finally, I'm just gonna buy them because I want WotC to keep making them.

*Oh yeah, and Chaos Warp; though it's a little more niche, it's certainly still playable today.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 2:28 am 
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Location: Midgard
I think it's fair to say the Internet doesn't seem to be upset just because of few to no really good reprints, but that stuff combined with an increased MSRP and the promise these decks would be more powerful. The rest of the Internet is...generally more competitive oriented than here though and I haven't played the decks yet, so I can't judge power level problems. I haven't checked the average CMC of the decks, so maybe there's heavier cards than normal.

But questioning the increase in MSRP does seem like it has a valid position. I'm still getting these decks for sure, but I'll be keeping a closer eye on this in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 2:44 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah like I said, it's a FAIR complaint and I did initially call out the MSRP thing but I guess when I made an edit I somehow removed that point entirely. Dunno what happened there.

But my point isn't that they don't have a valid complaint, just that I don't see why they are disappointed in the product AS A WHOLE just based solely on the reprint quality. I'm not seeing ANYONE saying "well the new cards are shit AND the reprints are shit so I wish I hadn't preordered"

No, all I'm seeing is "the reprints are shit so I wish I hadn't preordered". As if the new cards didn't exist or had no value. But that's more or less the same fucking reaction I see every year and if you go back and look at the older decks 99% of the time the cards with LASTING value are the new cards.

Stuff they REPRINT in commander decks tends to get reprinted A LOT afterwards and tanks horribly. So it is kinda stupid to base your entire EV evaluation solely on the reprints. Again, there was a time Scav Ooze was like a $35 card now he's what $2? Or even if he's more now he WAS like $2 at one point due to reprints. Anyway, I'm just annoyed for no reason because that's what the internet does and I am incapable of fucking learning. Oh well.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 3:22 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Anyway, regardless of all that I think this set looks really, really good. Probably not the best Commander set ever, but not the worst either.

The Esper deck kinda looks like shit, though and I don't really understand what they were even going for, but both of the alternate commanders seem cool and have some potential. The sphinx at least does something really unique and build-around, while the esper zombie one is basically just checking a box, but one I think a lot of us wanted to see them check.

The Bant one looks nuts and is probably be pretty decent out of the box. That merfolk enchantress though really make the 'walker look lame in comparison and I say that despite being REALLY impressed with the 'walker at first!

Saheeli's deck is pretty much a stock standard UR artifact precon list. I already have a Jhoira deck and ain't looking to replace her, but there are definitely some new goodies in this deck for me to pilfer. Overall, though, this one seems to be pushing you toward a more combo-ish style which ain't my style. This is the one I'm least interested in playing out of the box but that's mostly because, as I said, I already have a version of this deck in Jhoira, so redundancy is a thing.

And unlike 99% of the rest of the world I am pretty pleased with the Jund deck. I certainly feel like it dropped the ball a bit but I went into this spoiler season with "Jund Lands Matter" being the LEAST interesting archetype to me, and now it's probably the one I'm most eager to just sleeve up and try out without tinkering, but also the one I'm most excited to fine-tune once I've had a few games.

And Lord Windgrace is the only new 'walker-mander I truly, truly get excited about when I read him. I think a lot of people dislike him because he's a "boring" midrange value engines but, goddamn it, midrange value engines are my fucking heart and soul. Gimme dat incremental card advantage all day err day.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 3:33 am 
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Location: Midgard
Yeah, the Internet is good for doing that, a lot of the time. There's definitely a lot more hate than is really necessary. Probably a lot of it not deserved. Sorry it got you riled up.

Like I said, I'll be keeping an eye out when it comes to price increases. Not only does a price increase bother me on a fundamental level (Commander is very possible on a budget--there's no reason precons should be crazy expensive as an introductory deck), but also because at some point I may not always agree only new cards justify increasing price. I'm not trying to put words in n your mouth. What I'm saying is if WOTC starts increasing prices every year or two years under the premise "new cards always means more expensive," I'll be questioning that.

When it comes to these decks they all have cards I want--new and old. The Jund deck could have been a bit more focused on the promised theme, but you can be sure I'm planning on trouncing someone with a certain legendary spider.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 3:42 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
thaumaturge wrote:
Seriously, just go look at the original commander decks from 2011 or whenever it was. What cards introduced in that set do you still play today?

Commander (2011)
Command Tower

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 3:48 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
Viperion wrote:
Primordial Mist is a cute way to enable manifesting Instants and Sorceries and still be able to cast them

I like that it says Play, instead of Cast, so you can play manifested lands if you want.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 3:53 am 
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The thing that really gets me about a lot of reactions I've seen on other sites is people saying "I'm really mad/disappointed/pissed off that they didn't reprint ($20-40 card)! It fits in perfectly with the theme!!!"

Did you really expect them to print a $40 card in a product who's MSRP is....$39.99?!?!

I put in all the decklists (minus the new cards) into mtggoldfish.com, and it showed every deck as coming in over $40. Jund was the lowest at $44 and Bant was the highest at $63.

I think the decklists look really interesting, and I'm eager to try them all out. I think Bant is going to be super crazy, while the other ones might be stronger late game. We'll see!

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 4:12 am 
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archmagemc wrote:
The thing that really gets me about a lot of reactions I've seen on other sites is people saying "I'm really mad/disappointed/pissed off that they didn't reprint ($20-40 card)! It fits in perfectly with the theme!!!"

Did you really expect them to print a $40 card in a product who's MSRP is....$39.99?!?!

That being said, a lot of those prices are directly due to WOTC's refusal on reprinting some of them. There are somewhat absurd prices on cards which probably shouldn't be absurd--Scarecrone, for example, is a $10+ card that, while solid, probably should cost half that. Lack of reprint drives the price up. I'm not sure WOTC should allow the secondary market to dictate what should and shouldn't get reprinted.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 4:19 am 
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Segrus wrote:
I'm not sure WOTC should allow the secondary market to dictate what should and shouldn't get reprinted.


I completely agree with this. However, I don't think a limited release like the Commander Pre-con decks is the place to reprint cards to drop their value. Let's say they did decide to reprint something like Sensei's Divining Top in a Commander deck. Due to the limited printings, and the secondary market, that would make it very hard for people who play the game to actually get the decks. I remember there being a scarcity on decks a few times because people were buying them up for one or two particular cards.

Personally, I think WotC should say "screw the Reserved list" and reprint whatever they want. They should also reprint them in the base sets, not limited run events/sets.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 4:25 am 
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Don't get me wrong: I don't know whether or not I agree with this being the correct place for some of those reprints. Just like I don't think the second market should be the deciding factor, I also don't think the player's demands should dictate things either (not exactly--it's good to know what fans like, but not good to let them run your business).

Economics and such aren't my forte nor what I went to school for. I just think there's a lot of nuance to these arguments which deserve more than a passing glance.

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 Post subject: The tragic truth of the internet.
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 4:46 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
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People don't show up on open forums to NOT complain. Regardless of outcome the response to any game-product release will be disproportionately negative. The people who are super excited share their excitement inside the communities they are already a part of, the people who are mildly positive won't go out of their way to share it, and the people who are mad will fire up their long-neglected accounts and post how mad they are.

Moreover this is the "first" commander release for a lot of people. Magic has been growing, and lots of people who started playing a few years ago have been playing commander for about a year. Now they are settling into their psychological position as "a player who knows what cards are good" without having the experience of the hype-ride from prior commander sets.

In a few years they will hatch into beautiful butterflies that realize every single Commander Precon has beaten its MSRP value in cards, and that reprinting in the Precons screws up their availablility by making them targets of buyouts. Reprints go in packs if you actually want the price to go DOWN.

And next year, once they have learned their lesson, it will be time for the next batch of new EDH-ers to ask that tricky question, "Why don't they put Thoughtsieze and Force of Will into a precon?".

On a more positive/personal note, Thantis, the Warweaver means I can have an on-theme Jund Spider tribal deck. I am SO hyped!

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 5:10 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Oof, these decks are bad. Like, glad I didn't preorder bad. There are basically no exciting reprints in any of them, and the value of the mid-level cards that are being reprinted will probably crater once they hit the market.

On the plus side, you'll probably be able to find almost all of these decks at or below MSRP for the next year, so I guess that's nice.

I wasn't particularly invested in any of the themes this year, but as a Jund Lands player I am pretty disappointed in that deck. I had my doubts when I heard Eli Shiffrin was the designer for it, but I wasn't expecting it to be such a generic battlecruiser pile. I had hoped having a theme would have nudged him a bit more. Oh well.

At this point, I'm thinking I'll pick up Windgrace, his Judgement, Turntimber Sower, and Treasure Nabber as singles. I'm on the fence about Yuriko and Xantcha but don't have decks that want either so I'll probably pass. Night Incarnate is interesting and I love me a good Evoke dork but I'm struggling to figure out where I'd slot it into either of my black decks.

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 Post subject: Re: C18
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-27 5:10 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
Not only does a price increase bother me on a fundamental level (Commander is very possible on a budget--there's no reason precons should be crazy expensive as an introductory deck), but also because at some point I may not always agree only new cards justify increasing price. I'm not trying to put words in n your mouth. What I'm saying is if WOTC starts increasing prices every year or two years under the premise "new cards always means more expensive," I'll be questioning that.
I'm 100% with you on this. HOPEFULLY they'll receive and HEED a lot of feedback on this particular set. I'm not saying there is NO cause for complaint, I am definitely a bit underwhelmed by this set myself, just not NEARLY to the point I don't want the decks. It's a single step in the wrong direction, I will concede but they've made so many steps fowards that one step backwards hardly seems cause for doomsaying. Obviously if the trend continues this way year over year, even I will be hard pressed to justify supporting it. But, again, it's one misstep in a long line of most years being improvements over their predecessors.

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