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 Post subject: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 11:42 am 

Joined: 2018-Sep-10 6:09 am
Age: Hatchling
... is (in my opinion) the involvement of Wizards. Period. I am going to spare you any kind of long rant. Just look at all the cards obviously designed for EDH and ask yourself if those (or at least a majority of them) are really doing all that much good for the format. I also somewhat blame them for the social problems since their product pushing has created a huge amount of players that are completely detached from any kind of community. Getting into EDH used to be because of friends and and a shared hobby not because you bought some box and heard it was Magic on crack.

Am i the only person feeling this way?


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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 1:05 pm 
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Welcome to the forums!

For a time period, I would have agreed. Starting probably around Rise of the Eldrazi and ending with Theros block, there were a lot of big ass generic boring cards printed that were obviously intended for EDH and just always made games suck the instant they showed up. Eldrazi, Blightsteel, the Praetors, Primeval Titan, Consecrated Sphinx, Avacyn, Griselbrand, DEN, pretty much every commander from C13, Omniscience, Worldfire, Primal Surge, Enter the Infinite, the Primordials, Cyclonic Rift, Master of Cruelties, the list goes on. They also did a bunch of crap like print so many tuck spells that the RC was essentially forced into closing the loophole, having multiple Flusterstorm/True-Name Nemesis effects going on, and just in general picking weird cards to reprint (Trade Secrets being the standout example).

But, I am incredibly pleased to say that I don't think the same thing has been true for a long, long time. We're constantly getting new cards that aren't just hyper-Timmy "play this and win" cards, nor are they super spikey "you have to run this in every deck or you'll lose to decks that have it". We have so many cards coming out in every set that are situationally ridiculous and generically decent. And the generals, both in quantity and quality, are far greater than old-time EDH could have ever imagined. Sure there are duds here and there, but for every Leovold and Anguished Unmaking we get seven Grenzo, Havoc Raisers and Reality Scrambles.

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 2:19 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I agree somewhat that WotC involvement has been bad for the format, mostly in the form of their dedicated Commander products. The majority of the new cards they design for those either miss the mark by a wide margin (Crash of Rhino Beetles, Centaur Vinecrasher, basically any generic fatty) or completely obsolesce other options in their category (Command Tower, The Ur-Dragon, the multicolor Partner commanders). There are very few cards in between that enable interesting options or require dedicated deck building decisions that feel rewarding when made.

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Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 6:53 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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Aggro_zombies wrote:
or completely obsolesce other options in their category (Command Tower, The Ur-Dragon, the multicolor Partner commanders).

I'm not sure what you mean by obsolesce here, given it usually means everything else comparable is dead and useless by comparison. The cards you listed did net good for the format from my perspective:
- Command Tower: Don't know about you but if my deck still needs multicolour lands, I'm still including them. What I do have though is a good mana fixing card that I have in abundance (or can get for $1 because I don't have to compete with the standard or modern crowd) that I can include among them.
- The Ur-Dragon has not replaced all potential commanders for dragon decks. (Not everyone building dragons wants 5 colors.) What it may have obsolesced was Scion of the Ur-Dragon as a commander for 5C dragon tribal decks—you know, the pseudo-tutoring commander in a format that discourages tutoring—and if it's done that, good. My games against Scion have been gross as all get out, and Spikes basically have a prescribed list of dragons to get out in a specific order that make games both samey and overwhelming. Now people get a different option that doesn't do these things.
- Partner commanders didn't replace anything, did they? What they did was add new options like any commander, including to some extremely limited 3C spaces and—together with the other C16 commanders—created 4C variety for us. The only thing I can think is Nephilim, but you didn't name the 4C commanders and having more than five options is...good??

Quote:
There are very few cards in between that enable interesting options or require dedicated deck building decisions that feel rewarding when made.

Completely disagree, I've been having fun working with a ton of cards that have come out each expansion for the past three years I've been brewing my own EDH decks. There have been stinkers, but there aren't exclusively stinkers. Sorry to hear that's been your experience. It's not universal though.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Last edited by spacemonaut on 2018-Sep-10 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-10 10:56 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think it's easy to lay blame at WotC because since their awareness and involvement in the format there had been a large number of bland goodstuff cards, and more players means more chances to encounter diversity. But I think the popularity is a good thing. No, if I were to say what the "worst" thing to happen to EDH was, I would say the Reserve List and overall high card prices, because it creates a real division of the classes in terms of haves and have nots.


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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 4:18 am 

Joined: 2018-Sep-10 6:09 am
Age: Hatchling
Wow, thanks for all the great responses so far.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
For a time period, I would have agreed. Starting probably around Rise of the Eldrazi and ending with Theros block, there were a lot of big ass generic boring cards printed that were obviously intended for EDH and just always made games suck the instant they showed up.


Exactly. I have to admit that my knowledge of new cards is rather thin. I currently life in a bubble where things move very very slowly and funnily enough my first hand experience pretty much ends at Theoros. I would have thought the trend to simply continue but it's good to hear that isn't necessarily the case. The sad part is most of those cards will stay with us forever as the majority of them simply isn't ban worthy per se and it would be pretty much impossible to draw a line. They really are just as you put it "big ass generic boring cards" that lead to crappy games.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
They also did a bunch of crap like print so many tuck spells that the RC was essentially forced into closing the loophole


That's quite interesting to hear. I didn't even notice there had been an influx of tuck spells that lead to the removal of that "option". Back then i thought it was some kind of coordinated effort since Oubliette had been eratad to exile cards instead of phasing them out. It felt kinda bad with power levels of generals exploding and no semi permant way to keep the problematic ones off the table but now i understand. Tucking away generals really shouldn't be a common sight but more or less be reserved for the Zurs and Erayos (yeah, i know he is long gone).

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
But, I am incredibly pleased to say that I don't think the same thing has been true for a long, long time.


Funny but true. The Magic universe really moves at a pace where a year ago (that's kinda when Theoros was current iirc) is a seriously long time.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
And the generals, both in quantity and quality, are far greater than old-time EDH could have ever imagined. Sure there are duds here and there, but for every Leovold and Anguished Unmaking we get seven Grenzo, Havoc Raisers and Reality Scrambles.


Agreed. Diversity is great and if they really tuned down the amount of generals that are just one step short of ordering your opponent to fetch you drinks every turn i am more than happy about it. Who knows maybe there is hope that as time goes on the more obnoxious ones will at least become a less common sight as they fade from peoples memories. Generals that invite to build around them are a very cool thing in my book. It's just those that take the building around out of the equation because they are either question and answer in one card or simply mean major advantage no matter what you pile on top of it.

spacemonaut wrote:
Aggro_zombies wrote:
or completely obsolesce other options in their category (Command Tower, The Ur-Dragon, the multicolor Partner commanders).

I'm not sure what you mean by obsolesce here, given it usually means everything else comparable is dead and useless by comparison. The cards you listed did net good for the format from my perspective:
- Command Tower: Don't know about you but if my deck still needs multicolour lands, I'm still including them. What I do have though is a good mana fixing card that I have in abundance (or can get for $1 because I don't have to compete with the standard or modern crowd) that I can include among them.


It might not completely obsolete other cards but it is still strictly better (best comparsion would be City of Brass imo) than any other multicolored land and an obvious auto include. If you factor in that your multicolored deck only can run so many non-basics unless you want to be wide open to stuff like Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Ruination and friends it might very well take the spot of some other multicolor land. Outside of fetching it's even better than the original duals and that's saying something. If nothing else it's still a seriously boring card.

spacemonaut wrote:
- The Ur-Dragon has not replaced all potential commanders for dragon decks. (Not everyone building dragons wants 5 colors.) What it may have obsolesced was Scion of the Ur-Dragon as a commander for 5C dragon tribal decks—you know, the pseudo-tutoring commander in a format that discourages tutoring—and if it's done that, good. My games against Scion have been gross as all get out, and Spikes basically have a prescribed list of dragons to get out in a specific order that make games both samey and overwhelming. Now people get a different option that doesn't do these things.


Have to agree. This is not strictly replacing anything but still... A free effect that is literally unstoppable and doesnt even have to activated combined with an ability that reads "attack with dragons, draw lots of cards". Oh well. Not saying this card is much of a problem but it's surely not what i'd call a great addition. Besides you have to keep in mind even if you aren't building 5C dragons free ramp might still be interesting. Nothing outside of flavor mandates that your deck has to be able to cast your commander.

spacemonaut wrote:
- Partner commanders didn't replace anything, did they? What they did was add new options like any commander, including to some extremely limited 3C spaces and—together with the other C16 commanders—created 4C variety for us. The only thing I can think is Nephilim, but you didn't name the 4C commanders and having more than five options is...good??


But then they could have simply printed some 4C legends and be done with it. It's as superfluous as the planeswalker generals in my opinion. I don't have any first hand experience with this yet but to me it's just another incarnation of Wizards going "In which way could we mess with the format defining rules to make people buy our product?".

spacemonaut wrote:
Quote:
There are very few cards in between that enable interesting options or require dedicated deck building decisions that feel rewarding when made.

Completely disagree, I've been having fun working with a ton of cards that have come out each expansion for the past three years I've been brewing my own EDH decks. There have been stinkers, but there aren't exclusively stinkers. Sorry to hear that's been your experience. It's not universal though.


I think i know what he is getting at. Alot of interactions feel really forced and it seems hard to get off the beaten path. I figure it might be a personal thing so if you are having fun with it more power to you.

cryogen wrote:
I think it's easy to lay blame at WotC because since their awareness and involvement in the format there had been a large number of bland goodstuff cards, and more players means more chances to encounter diversity. But I think the popularity is a good thing. No, if I were to say what the "worst" thing to happen to EDH was, I would say the Reserve List and overall high card prices, because it creates a real division of the classes in terms of haves and have nots.


Of course the popularity is a good (and i think we can all agree also a deserved) thing. What you say in regards to the reserved list (and card prices in general) creating a devide is also true but in my opinion it's something that is not necessarily going to affect everyone (in contrast to recently printed stuff which is pretty much everywhere). It really depends on your environment. If you regularly run into people that happen to collect for ages or are investing tons of money i see how that could get pretty annoying but is this really a common theme?

Besides i played in an online environment where people had access to literally everything for quite some time and not only is the powerlevel not all that exciting in the long run but i don't even remember that many insanely priced (of course that's somewhat subjective) cards being played. I had five color decks that wouldn't even play duals let alone shocks but basic lands and Panoramas. The risk of running a ton of non basics simply wasn't worth it. I had a deck that really loved a Bazar of Bagdad but being just 1 out of 100 in tons of games it never showed up and even then it wouldn't make me invincible.

I admit i might be biased since i was never confronted with a spikey environment where money was a game changing factor but i'd still argue Wizards recent actions having way more actual impact. Also one that's pretty much unfixable. In the end prices and reserved list problems are just a question of allowing proxies but what do do you do about a huge pile of crappy cards that are in active circulation? Write a 10 page ban list, have endless discussions on what's OK and what isn't and finally watch a huge array of sad faces?


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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 8:59 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hate to break it, but Theros rotated out of standard three years ago next month...

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 9:08 am 

Joined: 2018-Sep-10 6:09 am
Age: Hatchling
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Hate to break it, but Theros rotated out of standard three years ago next month...


Haha, ouch. True, that is seriously a long time by pretty much any standard. Rechecked it. Seems i had confused it with Ixalan for some reason. Guess it's a nice example how out of touch i've been lately though.


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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 9:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
There's very little true obsolescence in a singleton format, but there is such a thing as, "Before I consider running other options, I will always run this card." Command Tower fits that bill perfectly. Sure, if you want solid mana you will run other lands that tap for multiple colors, but Command Tower will be good almost without exception (mono-color decks). If you're starting a list for a multicolor mana base without a Command Tower, you're deliberately handicapping yourself.

A lot of the Commander product cards deliberately made for the format either hit high or hit low. Basically any fatty they make that has large stats, wants you to attack, and doesn't generate immediate card advantage hits low because it is interchangeable with every other fatty they make that has large stats, wants you to attack, and doesn't generate immediate card advantage. I'm thinking here specifically of the original creatures with the Lieutenant ability, but there are some of these in every set. In most cases, they just don't matter. Most of them are trivial to trade up against and singleton large dorks are incredibly easy to neutralize or ignore because of the tendancy of most casual Commander groups to turtle and durdle or else play power decks that bypass combat somehow.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are cards that hit way too high and are instant staples. Chaos Warp and Command Tower are obvious ones here. Many of the actual generals they make are also head-and-shoulders above anything else playing in that category - I think Edward Markov or The Ur-Dragon are my two standouts for this because they have amazing abilities, give you access to all or almost all of the colors you would want anyway, and are pretty far above the curve for what they do. A lot of their attempts to interact with the rules of the format directly are either irritatingly powerful (Derevi, Oloro) or hilariously bad (Opal Palace).

I don't know any players out there saying, "Man, I am so glad Crash of Rhino Beetles, Avatar of Slaughter, and Dawnbreak Reclaimer exist!" At the same time, I know a ton of players who hate cards like Nekusar, Teferi's Protection, the partner commanders, etc. Wizards already has plenty of venues in normal sets, or sets like Battlebond, to aim cards at this format. They don't need to make a Commander-specific product.

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Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 1:15 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
but for every Leovold and Anguished Unmaking


I mostly agree with you... but what's wrong with Anguished Unmaking?

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-11 1:58 pm 
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I dunno. I like having the Commander stuff every year, and additional throw-ins with the late summer releases. What is grinding my gears a bit is that every time a new set releases, I immediately do a search for "Legendary Creature" to see what might break the format or add cool options to said format.

At this point, I've just decided I'm going to go budget on stuff (new project is Jugan with Primal Vigor but no Doubling Season) and just have some fun. It'll change me from the hyper-focused Duel Commander builds, and that'll be fun in and of itself, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-12 2:57 pm 
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Aggro_zombies wrote:
I don't know any players out there saying, "Man, I am so glad Crash of Rhino Beetles, Avatar of Slaughter, and Dawnbreak Reclaimer exist!"


I used to think this way in the years before I managed an LGS. As it turns out, there are a staggering number of players who think exactly that. In fact, they are likely the majority of customers.

Aggro_zombies wrote:
At the same time, I know a ton of players who hate cards like Nekusar, Teferi's Protection, the partner commanders, etc.


I tend to agree that there've been plenty of misses (I can't imagine they spend as much time developing multiplayer cards as they do limited and standard), but I still feel like the Commander-specific product has been more hit than miss.

I also suspect that some of R&D's biggest multiplayer mistakes never see print, largely because they ARE invested in casual multiplayer in general and Commander in particular.

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-21 11:23 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
zorg wrote:
... is (in my opinion) the involvement of Wizards. Period. I am going to spare you any kind of long rant. Just look at all the cards obviously designed for EDH and ask yourself if those (or at least a majority of them) are really doing all that much good for the format. I also somewhat blame them for the social problems since their product pushing has created a huge amount of players that are completely detached from any kind of community. Getting into EDH used to be because of friends and and a shared hobby not because you bought some box and heard it was Magic on crack.

Am i the only person feeling this way?



Actually I was able to drag a couple of players that has abandoned MTG for years to play again thanks to EDH and WoTC involvment

A couple years ago, I was trying to convince some old friends to start play MTG again, we use to play "Extended" (now dead) and standard, they were very reluctant to make a comeback because they just dont like the idea of spending thousands of bucks in a 4 Turn modern deck or 500+ in a standard deck that will rotate.

I told them about starting a playgroup for EDH, told them about the format and one of the "tricks" I used was that WoTC have launched recently the "Commander 2016" Edition, so we can buy those precons and start playing out of the box, for just 50 bucks, that was good enought for my friends, we bought those precons and started our playgroup, now each one (except by me) has a lot of custom made EDH decks, but if where not for those precons I woudnt be able to convince them to play EDH

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-22 12:06 am 
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I'm glad you and your friends found your way into EDH that way. My friends and I got involved in EDH via the precons as well. :)

C16 was an especially good time to get precons. :P

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 Post subject: Re: The worst thing to ever happen to EDH...
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-22 12:43 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
spacemonaut wrote:

C16 was an especially good time to get precons. :P


Except by me, I got the "pillofort" one wich is the worst of them all o.O

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