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 Post subject: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 1:05 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Understand that this is not a direction the RC has even considered, just a stray thought in my mind.

What if, back in the beginning of EDH, the rule had been that you must have a minimum number of creatures in your deck--let's say 20-25.

How would that having impacted your willingness to give the format a try? How do you think it would have shaped the format since?

Personally, I don't think it would change much, since most decks I've ever seen have at least 20 creatures in them. Obviously, superfriends wouldn't work, and dedicated non-creature combo decks probably wouldn't either, but that's a minority of the decks, right?

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 2:13 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
As my deck collection stands now, that would only invalidate 1 of my 30+ decks.

My Narset, Enlightened Master deck that uses Proteus Staff to stack the deck. (Narset is the only creature in the deck)

The other decks are usually themed, and usually around tribes. Human, Goblin, Elf, heck even Legendary 'tribal' is in there.


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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 3:09 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
When I was first introduced to EDH, it was explained to me with all the rules and restrictions, so to respond to the first half, it wouldn't have changed anything about me entering the format because it would have just been another rule.

However, to respond to the second half of this, I think you are underestimating (or perhaps overestimating) the creature/spell breakdown. I dont build dedicated combo decks, or super friends, or quite frankly any decks that I feel are against the nature of the format, and I have made quite a few decks with low creature counts. I think creating a restriction like this would cut off more than you think, like artifact/enchantment voltron decks, control decks, and spellslinger to name a few. So what I think you would find is that the subset of players who don't want to turn dudes sideways would not have the longterm enjoyment that the current depth of the format affords.


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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 5:47 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I still would have tried it out, but I don't think I would have been as interested. I think most of my decks have 30 or so creatures, so most of them would fit in without this restriction.

I think trying to make people fit too many deck restrictions means there will be less diversity.

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 6:16 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
It wouldn't have stopped me from starting to play the format. At the time, I had a lot of good cards but not enough multiples of specific cards to really play the formats I wanted to play in. Plus, I just have terrible luck at tournaments. Having the freedom to create whatever I want and just have fun was very appealing.

Having a minimum on the number of creatures in a deck would have put me off a little though. It seems like be a little difficult to build some decks, and outright impossible in other cases. I'd have to actually go through all my decks, but there's at least a handful I think would be under 20. My Faust, Macar, and Myself deck is mono-Black control with less than 10 creatures, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 6:43 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So out of curiosity I went through all my decklists on MTGS. of the 46 I have posted, only 15 had under 20 creatures, and of those 15, four of the were either stax or dedicated combo.

Not nearly as many as I had thought it would be, but not being able to play 1/3rd of my decks would he a little offputting.


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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 7:16 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I started to go through my lists, expecting that I had that many creatures in nearly all of my decks - only got as far as Allied Colour pairs and already ran into two that don't - Ramses Assassins (19) and Tolsimir Tokens (19, but a lot of spells that create creatures)

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 8:32 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
This wouldn't negatively affect me since I like playing creature-heavy decks to begin with.

My locale has a lot of stax players. Or rather, we have a lot of players who have figured out enchantment removal is rarely played and so play a lot of them to control the game. An anti-enchantment counter-strategy hasn't emerged. This would at least make these decks a little less consistent, but probably not by much.

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 10:48 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
Age: Drake
I play Karn mostly creature free, as a combat oriented deck. It does have a giant robot sub theme. You could legitimately play some kind of token theme off non creature spells. I love creature based decks, but wth a restriction like thati think the format would be less interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-27 12:10 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
In general I love deck restrictions because you get to use cards that you normally don’t see used, but I remember fondly my first EDH deck which was all about getting value from dralnu, lich lord and using long terms plans to find a clunky 3 card combo... Having a creature requirement would have been offputting to me personally since my decks always run light on them unless the theme dictates more. Even today I run light on creatures and rely more on wrath effects.

I would have rather seen an in game rule like you don’t lose the game unless it’s from combat damage or something.

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-28 12:39 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
We tried a few early experiments on making the commander more relevant--like you couldn't win unless you had played your commander or you couldn't win unless you had done commander damage to someone (this was the days before commander damage had to be combat damage). Both were just clunky.

The creature idea was never even a thought and would definitely serve no good purpose now.

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-28 1:46 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Sheldon wrote:

The creature idea was never even a thought and would definitely serve no good purpose now.

Well I am glad about that.

The things I love about commander are

1. Being able to play almost any card I want because the baned list is short
2. being able to construct (and be viable) any kind of strategy

If you "have" to include 20+ creatures in the deck as a basic rule then you are constraining our building options

I do not play "dedicated" combo decks and by dedicated I mean decks that are built around the combo/wincon but I do play some control decks Like Oloro and I am building a Pheldagriff one, and those decks has barely 4-6 creatures

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-28 5:35 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It wouldn't bother me, my only deck right now is a janky Jasmine Boreal "Peace must prevail, even if the wicked must die" theme deck with flower/nature sub-themes.
I'd rather just have a rule where you need to win through Commander damage. That would remove all the combo decks and you'd see some beefy commanders and stuff.

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Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
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A Denying Wind.
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Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-28 9:45 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
CrazyPierre wrote:
I'd rather just have a rule where you need to win through Commander damage. That would remove all the combo decks and you'd see some beefy commanders and stuff.

Uff da. I don't think I'd like that at all. Maybe even less than a 20-minimum creature restriction. I have at least some decks which utilize a rather weak commander in terms of P/T, and I'd have to rebuild them entirely to be turtle-durdles just to be able to have any chance at winning.

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 Post subject: Re: What If...?
AgePosted: 2019-Jan-28 9:50 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
CrazyPierre wrote:
It wouldn't bother me, my only deck right now is a janky Jasmine Boreal "Peace must prevail, even if the wicked must die" theme deck with flower/nature sub-themes.
I'd rather just have a rule where you need to win through Commander damage. That would remove all the combo decks and you'd see some beefy commanders and stuff.


As a side note, the Jasmine Boreal quote figures in my 30+ year old RPG. When I'm helping players think about their characters during creation, I ask them to consider and articulate how their characters would respond to that quote.

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