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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 5:39 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
Image

OOOF


Just wierd to me that he is a "Lord" and a "High", it would read better to me if it was one or the other. Just seems redundant even though they do mean slightly different things I guess.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:07 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
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Inkeyes22 wrote:
Just wierd to me that he is a "Lord" and a "High", it would read better to me if it was one or the other. Just seems redundant even though they do mean slightly different things I guess.
Sort of a riff on this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Officer_of_State


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:09 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
scatteredsun wrote:
Now that's an Artificer!!!!!!!!

Holy cow...
An Artificer with the ability to make a Temporal Aperture too.

Inkeyes22 wrote:
Just wierd to me that he is a "Lord" and a "High", it would read better to me if it was one or the other. Just seems redundant even though they do mean slightly different things I guess.
It's kind of just another tier bit. I think of "Lord" and "High Lord" kinda like Bishop and Archbishop.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:14 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-29 8:18 am
Age: Drake
Blue gets all the good toys :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:21 am 
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Carthain wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
Just wierd to me that he is a "Lord" and a "High", it would read better to me if it was one or the other. Just seems redundant even though they do mean slightly different things I guess.
It's kind of just another tier bit. I think of "Lord" and "High Lord" kinda like Bishop and Archbishop.


And that would make sense... except he has another title "Artificer" I mean, start abbreviating already am I right?

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:31 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
And that would make sense... except he has another title "Artificer" I mean, start abbreviating already am I right?

Ahhh. See, I don't see that as a title, but as a Job description. Might be why I'm not having any problems with it all :)

Or, I just have no problems with Urza being that ostentatious :D


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 6:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Both. They are the basic land in every pack, and they'll cost a BUNCH
Pre-order seems to have them at ~$2. The same as snow covered lands now

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 8:57 am 
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tgambitg wrote:
Image

OOOF


So, is this likely to be banned? I'm thinking of adding him to my Sai deck (and potentially replacing him as general), but I don't want to get my hopes up if he's going to end up living in my collector's binder next to Tolarian Academy...


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 9:11 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
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(Disclaimer; I am not on the Rules Committee or Advisory Group)

This card is never getting banned.

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 9:52 am 
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Viperion wrote:
This card is never getting banned.

Yeah, I don't see any way this is banworthy. Everything on this card has been done elsewhere, and its abilities don't overly synergize (like Prophet of Kruphix does) to get out of control.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 10:23 am 
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Viperion wrote:
This card is never getting banned.

Yeah, the mana ability seems a bit troubling, but it's not even as powerful as, say, Selvala, Heart of the Wild so I don't see it being banned. I definitely want this guy. Honestly seems a little weak, given that it's FREAKING URZA, but then, Blind Seer isn't a powerhouse either.

I'm going to enjoy amassing clue tokens and treasure tokens and having all the blue forever without sacrificing.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 10:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Willbender wrote:
Viperion wrote:
This card is never getting banned.

Yeah, I don't see any way this is banworthy. Everything on this card has been done elsewhere, and its abilities don't overly synergize (like Prophet of Kruphix does) to get out of control.


I mean, you guys say that... but logically it's at the very least possible.

So far it does the following:
* Enters with an artifact creature that scales in P/T with the amount of artifacts you have, which can also immediately generate a blue mana with Urza's second ability.
* Turns all 0 drop artifacts into Mox Sapphire's equivalent
* Built-in mana sink that can cast whatever you want or even get you a land if you haven't played one for the turn.

Unlike most commanders where there's a build around aspect that you might have to jump through, like Selvala, Heart of the Wilds that needs fatties to ramp to high hell or Najeela, the Blade-Blossom which needs warriors to maximize her abilities, Artifacts are used universally. Colored mana production is huge, as is the outlet for infinite mana. It's aggressively costed for it's utility and honestly, at what point is it not a creature to kill on sight? At what point does it become unworthy of casting again? The first question's answer is basically never; it's always among the first to be killed on the board, or should be. You could pay 10 mana for this thing and it would still be worth it... 12? still very likely, etc.

When your build restrictions aren't so much restrictions as they are incidental value to be had, it's not a mark against it. Efficient Construction, Thopter Spy Network, The Antiquities War, Arcum Dagsson, Sai, Master Thopterist, Vedalken Archmage, etc.

Prophet of Kruphix was banned for being too good at what it did, that it was basically Vedalken Orrery and Seedborn Muse's love child. The value generated by having it out and how games were centralized on it landed it a home on the banned list (much to the chagrin on my Sliver Overlord deck...)

Urza is, for all intents and purposes, a stronger, color fixing, unrestricted usage Inspiring Statuary for anything you need, a solid bodied creature with 4 toughness that also ETB's with Karn, Scion of Urza's -2 ability, and also functions as a repeatable Temporal Aperture on a stick, without needing to tap.

If he's not too good at what it does, and skating the line of gross abusability, it's on the razor's edge. Not that we're centralizing or even caring too much as a community about the competitive levels of Commander/EDH, but there's zero chance he's not in the highest tier.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 11:08 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 1:11 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
I think banning Paradox Engine and/or Intruder Alarm instead of Urza, Lord High Artificer would be the logical choice since it hits a lot of overpowered decks though there are some underlying problems I still see with the new Urza in Modern Horizons that could potentially make him banworthy in EDH / Commander:

1. Extreme mana acceleration that doesn't make you wait for a turn, something rarely seen outside of Seton, Krosan Protector. I imagine that a player could reasonably cast this card "for free" a decent period of the time and produce sickening levels of mana thereafter.

2. Urza is a Commander that ideally wants you to shuffle your deck several times per turn, slowing gameplay to a crawl. While Arjun, The Shifting Flame is a card, Urza gives a far more powerful (on average) payoff for the effect.

3. This feels like the type of card that would warp gameplay. If it is allowed in the 99, this is the type of card that players will grab with Bribery and Reanimate from graveyards. Even as a Commander, I can easily picture players wanting to Clone and Confiscate this from one another. Giving you a free body, turning your equipment and general artifacts into free mana rocks, and giving you a powerful colorless mana sink is a pretty great deal (especially late in the game).

4. On top of all of that, this card can be played as a Stax General with Winter Orb and Static Orb (making both of those cards asymmetrical), which "isn't in the spirit" of the format. It's even worse with Karn, the Great Creator's interaction with Mycosynth Lattice locking your opponents from being able to tap their lands for mana. There's a reason why that combo is popular in Modern right now while in Commander it's a ticking time bomb.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 2:08 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
I mean, you guys say that... but logically it's at the very least possible.

We say that because we've been on this ride before; at this point it's getting easy to see what's broken out of the box and what isn't. This is good, but it's not banworthy, IMO.

Quote:
* Built-in mana sink that can cast whatever you want or even get you a land if you haven't played one for the turn.

Careful with that overstatement there; it costs 5 mana each time and you shuffle your library first. That's a LONG way from "cast whatever you want".

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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