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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 2:18 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Card Slinger J wrote:
1. Extreme mana acceleration that doesn't make you wait for a turn, something rarely seen outside of Seton, Krosan Protector. I imagine that a player could reasonably cast this card "for free" a decent period of the time and produce sickening levels of mana thereafter.
Exactly how many non-mana rock artifacts are you thinking you'll have when you cast this? 2? Maybe 3? If it's past turn 5, there are multiple ways decks can have gone to effectively infinite mana by this point, even in mono-blue. Adding even 4 or 5 blue mana at that point is not a huge deal, when you sank 4 into casting the commander. High tide gives you a more immediate impact than that most of the time.

Card Slinger J wrote:
2. Urza is a Commander that ideally wants you to shuffle your deck several times per turn, slowing gameplay to a crawl.
The shuffle is to randomize the deck in the case you've stacked it with scry effects or similar. As long as you don't do anything to un-randomize your deck between the activations, you can shortcut it and not shuffle.

Card Slinger J wrote:
3. This feels like the type of card that would warp gameplay. If it is allowed in the 99, this is the type of card that players will grab with Bribery and Reanimate from graveyards.
This is about the only realistic point you've made, but comparing it to something like Primeval Titan that got banned for this reason, it seems a lot weaker. Primetime gives much more long-term advantage on a body that's a threat in itself. but Urza isn't going to be that significant to any players without a large amount of mana to sink into his effect.

Card Slinger J wrote:
4. On top of all of that, this card can be played as a Stax General with Winter Orb and Static Orb (making both of those cards asymmetrical), which "isn't in the spirit" of the format.
Cutting a stax deck to mono blue already makes it weaker than several other stax options. Hell, just compare him to Grand Arbiter Augustin IV - I'll take seeing Urza over that guy any day of the week.

Card Slinger J wrote:
It's even worse with Karn, the Great Creator's interaction with Mycosynth Lattice locking your opponents from being able to tap their lands for mana.
Urza is 100% irrelevant to Karn/Lattice - there are much, much faster ways to power them out, and once they're out Urza is completely irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 5:39 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
So Urza wins with Paradox Engine, DEN and Palinchron or Staff of D and Metalworker, but so what? It's not as if you needed Urza to win with those cards. People who want that are already doing that. I think the RC's stance on that is "if you want to bore people into not playing you, go ahead but not at my table".

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-21 10:57 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
I mean, you guys say that... but logically it's at the very least possible.

We say that because we've been on this ride before; at this point it's getting easy to see what's broken out of the box and what isn't. This is good, but it's not banworthy, IMO.


Not to beat a dead horse, but the sky is not falling. I am one that believes that the RC has banned (and kept banned) more than one card that should not be, but even I don't think this card is even close to being banned.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 1:09 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 1:15 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
It's incredibly mana intensive to set up and fragile as hell... but...

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SHOTGUNNING SLIVERS TO THE FIELD


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 1:16 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
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Hmmm, is there a place for Jund Superfriends (Jund Injustice Gang?) with this and Storrev, Devkarin Lich?

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Depending on what he can fish out, I'm sure that there's some white-incorporating recursion deck that would be glad to incorporate him.

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Now we wait to see if there's a distinct legendary Construct tribal leader (i.e. Morophon doesn't count).


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 3:25 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Is this new creature academy as good or versatile as primeval titan. Probably not and I wouldn’t play cards for the specific purpose of trying to steal my oppoents Urza unless I’m artifact themed.

Is it broken? Maybe, but then again I want paradox engine to be banned so hopefully it sticks around instead of getting banned over engine.

I think it can be as good or better then the Tafari planswalker in cEDH. It’s a different card but can be built around to better or worst effects. Depending on if he’s out is how powerful your deck is. Without him I don’t think it’s an issue for cEDH, but that really isn’t my wheel house. :/

Wish the creature type and name was better, but making him a wizard night break him and doesn’t have anything to do with the lore of the card/character.

I’m happy they are printing a cycle set for free spells. It’s going to be sweet playing 4 free counter spells in my main deck. Also loved the new instant speed board wipes for target creature/token deck.

Idk we will see what RC says about all these powerful cards that have been pushed out.

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 4:18 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Regarding comparing Urza to Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial, it's a moot point. Primeval Titan produced a resource that is incredibly useful to every deck ever built and difficult to interact with. He was also a tutor, which made it so that manabases were built to be optimal for him even in decks that didn't run him, the most conspicuous example being the existence of Urborg/Coffers in literally any deck that had black in it. Sylvan Primordial was then a card that produced a similar resource, and killed all of your opponents' lands and annoying permanents en passant. And furthermore, killing/tucking/exiling either of them only had the effect of stopping further damage and did nothing to erase the damage that was done.

Urza is different in every way. The resources he produces are a lot easier to interact with, getting rid of him gets rid of a lot of his legacy (pun unintended), and his effect isn't even that good in many decks.

There's then the fact that I don't see him as being remotely problematic commander. His dependency on artifacts and his last ability's nonbo with counterspells makes him kind of a garbage MUC commander, and I don't see his potential as a combo commander being anything worse than what we already have to deal with. Even if I'm wrong and he does become a cEDH staple, he's not so much in the Braids/Erayo/Leovold territory of "ruin every game you show up in" as he would be in the Meren/Gitrog/Oloro camp of being as annoying or innocuous as he's built to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 10:59 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 4:23 pm
Age: Drake
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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 1:04 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
So I guess rainbow mana is a theme in this set?

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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 3:04 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
That and commanders with mana symbols everywhere except their casting cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 5:17 pm 

Joined: 2019-May-18 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
I'm happy to see a general consensus of "not ban worthy" I like the idea of the card and I'm working on a few deck ideas, Voltron, stax, go wide artifact creatures, and a recent idea from the forums construct tribal. I feel like it'd be a waste to ban such a cool flavor card so fresh out of the box, so to speak.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 10:57 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
That and commanders with mana symbols everywhere except their casting cost.


I'm kinda not enjoying the trend on these. There's value in having identify narrower than WUBRG, and if we only want to play 1-3 colors now we have to have a manabase that supports all 5 anyway. Constraint breeds creativity and narrower colors can create a stronger identity.

Brace for a lil rant.

General Tazri: Makes sense, allies are in all five colors and there probably won't be another Ally commander for a long time. Multiple 3-colored ally commanders might have been more distinct and interesting, but ok.

Najeela, the Blade-Blossom: We hear you, we messed up on Saskia. But that's ok, now you can play warriors again! In all five colors, including that handful of playable ones in blue, even despite that Aggression 4C identity being more suitable to warriors. Better figure out a way to include blue mana even if you only wanted to play 4C warriors!

Sisay, Weatherlight Captain: We heard you like playing legendaries but Captain Sisay only let you play them in two colors, so just play literally all the ones you want without constraint. And by all of them we mean all of them, you're going to *have* to make a five-color manabase to do anything with this commander, at which point you might as well actually also be casting five colors of legends too.

In case it doesn't show, I'd have preferred Najeela be nonblue and Sisay be 3-4. Color constraints are a good thing on so many levels.

And as much as I appreciate Morophon, that it promotes wider colored multicolor tribals and costs a full 7 CMC before we can have its anthem makes it be sort of not the omni-tribal commander Maro described it like.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 11:27 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
I'm kinda not enjoying the trend on these. There's value in having identify narrower than WUBRG, and if we only want to play 1-3 colors now we have to have a manabase that supports all 5 anyway.

Uhhh.. y'know, you don't have to include all five colors if you don't want to. Nothing says you're required to make use of all the colors of your general...

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My Decks: Zombiepocalypse (Thraximundar) ♦ Thrun stands alone (voltron) ♦ Ashling the Burninator ♦ Doran beatdown (treefolk/plant tribal) ♦ Mine! (UB theft/clone) ♦ Vampire Beatdown (Edgar Markov) ♦ BW Enchantments (Daxos the Returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Modern Horizons
AgePosted: 2019-May-22 11:34 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
I'm kinda not enjoying the trend on these. There's value in having identify narrower than WUBRG, and if we only want to play 1-3 colors now we have to have a manabase that supports all 5 anyway.

Uhhh.. y'know, you don't have to include all five colors if you don't want to. Nothing says you're required to make use of all the colors of your general...

The WUBRG cost of an activated ability says I do have to do that, though, and I have to put in the work to get a five color mana base up and running even if I only wanted to play three or four of those colors in this theme or tribe.

(And I know I could just not activate the ability, but this is that "players don't generally like not being able to use all parts of a card's rules text" thing. I want to be able to make use of all of my general's abilities, or I'd choose another general.)

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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