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 Post subject: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 11:08 pm 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
While I’ve been apart of the edh/commander community in my local meta for a long time, even visiting a local game store in which Sheldon plays from time to time, I’ve noticed a change in the format and have developed different forms of play with my friends to stay away from unfun or game breaking rule changes WotC has forced into edh.

I live in the Tampa area and can only establish what I’ve seen at my local meta in Tampa, Florida so bear that in mind while reading this form.

What is EDH or commander to me/my group:
I also make a distinction between edh and commander. Edh is the format that Sheldon created with his playgroup to have fun with creatures and cards that were fun to play in a multiplayer setting. Most were unplayable in a single player 60 card format, but were more then powerful enough for the game they made called edh. Commander is WotC’s attempt to take a popular unestablished format and make cards/product around that format specifically to get older/casual players to buy those cards/product.
Ultimately I consider edh to be the original trilogy of Star Wars, while the first few commander sets before they printed commander abilities from the command zone as the prequels and all the things that have static, activated and triggered abilities from the command zone are basically the last Jedi.
In this way you can see how I view the printing of these sets as an issue for people who played well before edh was ‘popularized’ by wizards and while I have an issue with these sets I can’t say I have an issue with the people who play them in the same way as I can’t have an issue with someone who liked the new direction Star Wars is taking. It’s a bus I ride on even if I’m sitting in the back of it trying to tell the driver they have a flat while everyone is screaming their opinions on the matter.


Here is the problem cards of our format:
cards like homeward path, Derevi, and commanders like proosh have warped the format in a bad way. Now they've printed Eminence and I have to board in mind slaver effects to answer these sorts of cards. Seems less fun to force your opponent to exile their never cast general, but you do what you gotta to answer stuff these days.

The issue with Homeward path
homeward pathhas made cards and abilities that take your opponents creatures fairly unplayable and it doesn’t cost mana to activate, doesn’t come into play tapped, and produces mana even if it’s colorless. You would think that a land with such a powerful ability as to make insurrection virtually unplayable should have some sort of cost like 3 mana tap it or 1 and a red tap it to use it. Yes you can see it coming and should pay attention to the game, but this doesn't change how effective and how little cost it has in the overall game at least if it entered the game tapped people would consider not running it. I think the card should have been printed, but ultimately needed a better cost because before homeward path people used mystifying maze to accomplish the same task at a much smaller level and only when they were attacked by a creature the opponent didn’t control. I don't mind it personally, but my playgroup has sour grapes when both homeward path and perplexing chimera are in play. I use pitting needled and scarab god to get around the ability, but the ability to just tap without cost seems poorly designed in the overall game imo.


Derevi is the beginning of the end or was until they continued where they left off.
The only issue I see with cards like Derevi is that they have no commander tax or virtually so until someone is smart enough to start running pitting needle. This created the beginning of abilities for commander that would have never been introduced in the game if WotC would have kept developing cards for the normal formats.


The last nail in the coffin,

They didn’t learn from the backlash or the new players coming into the format was greater then the old ones shying away from it. That or the backlash never was an issue when they printed abilities from the command zone. So WotC decided to print more abilities from the command zone. Things that can’t even be trickbind because they are static or triggered abilities and not activated or large cmc cast abilities. Hell you can at least trickbind proosh from having kobolds. You can’t (
you get one counter but torpor orb is the only static effect trickbind stops activation until EOT not triggers until EOT
) trickbind a wizard coming into play and someone paying mana to trigger an ability front he command zone over and over again . I don’t think they’ve printed a single card in the game to stop triggered abilities like that, aside from torpor orb like effects and summary dismissal .

So now I’m stuck with a playgroup who has played for years though the thick and thin of what wizards prints just to find out they don’t care about our concerns with the format, the bans on the format take way too long (in the case with primeval titan, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn). When the RC unbans cards like protein hulk they use the same rational they can use to unban reoccurring nightmare. Which is that grave hate is plentiful and health in the format. Nightmare is a lesser nim deathmantle in my eyes because even though it’s much harder to remove; it's also harder to play, must be in a black list while nim can be played in any list. Harder to reoccur, the things that are generally played can reoccur ether, but there are many more cards that grab artifacts > enchantments and nim can be activated though a stony silence because its a triggered effect it’s also at instant speed so it’s harder to stop if opponent has an ashnod's altar the game is usually over with just about anything with persist or undying.

We established long ago a year before the committee banned primeval titan, that then card was unfun and warping our playgroup. Then when they finally banned it, it gave us hope. We were able to dream that maybe, after all someone could fix what is broken about the format. That we might have a voice in the community overall after all. I've heard, but can't confirm that players in the community voiced their opposition to the card because it held the same issues regardless of meta. If that is the case I'm happy that they have the ability to change is the outcry is at a fevered pitch. This in no way makes me a ban happy camper. In fact our playgroup has unbanned griselbrand and reoccurring nightmare in order to test their viability in our playgroup. It's better nim deathmantle in my deck because it allows for less infinities and its easier to stop in our meta.

And yet instead of just keeping the tuck rule we have to deal with exiled commanders due to emrakul the promised end. If you target me with emrakul you get to decide if my commander stays in a zone making all player decisions because you control their turn.

I didn't like that concept so I changed out emrakul for word of command[\card] and now I feel like me and my friends can still enjoy the game without breaking into a huge fuss over what an op card like emrakul is not banned. Tbh I still don’t totally understand why they got rid of the tuck rule. I don’t think [card]spin into myth or hinder was ever a real issue, but as some as wizards printed spell crumple they were probably bombarded with a hate for the tuck 'rule'/loophole even if it generally kept the format healthy (pun intended).

Because we are tired of the format we generally just ban sol ring and all infinite combos. When there is an issue with a card we talk about it and take it out when we play each other. I take out protein hulk and emrakul, the promised end and we end up having better games for it. When I say ban its more or less a social contract. If you play sol ring and your deck isn't tuned that's something most of our group overlooks or if you infinite combo near turn 13+ and the game isn't going anywhere I'm personally fine with it. Games in which someone goes off with Zur Doomsday and kills everyone on turn 4 consistently is an issue. To stop that we just say, "yea you won, but we are going to play it out". This social aspect allows them to play the game as they want and we get to play the game we want to. They will never truly feel satisfied with a self ejection and we will be disappointed in losing a player in the game, but that's fair compromise looks like. They will ether be lured into the right power level or roll a more casual deck out. Most cEdh players have two decks or two versions of their deck so this doesn't seem unreasonable among most of the older players, but some of the newer players complain that we don't shuffle up and usually get the idea after a game or two.

Generally getting rid of sol ring has been healthy as it opens up a slot for something useful and people generally don’t want to play it because it’s a dead slot when no one else is playing it. Games end on turns 10 or 11 without sol ring and with it turns 7-8. It ends up turning games into arch enemy and generally give who ever played it on turn 1-3 a huge advantage. Being able to push your 3cmc or 4cmx ramp on turn two and have 6 to 7 mana on turn three is cEDH level for casual play. It also has the effect of feeling like one is playing behind without it. This causes players to play a card just for the sake that everyone else is playing it instead of playing a card because it makes the list overall better. I invite people to try it out in their own groups and see the difference. We've been extremely happy with the change.

On a side note I sorta wish we segregated cEDH and edh from one another and generally people ask what power everyone is playing at before the game starts. This prevents hurt feelings over what was played because now, at the vary least, you choose to sit and play with someone may power level 9/10 or 10/10. So you shouldn’t complain about the result if that’s the case, but because the bans affect both communities I think it’s a detriment to both groups making each other feel unheard or leftout.

Idk if anything but a separate ban list could fix that issue...

I’ll try to get back to replying just figured I’d share my experience about the game and the opinions I’ve had on it on the official board. I know I’m not the only one that feels this way, but I can’t be heard from the furthest corner of the card store. I’d like my opinion to be changed, but it won’t be changed without a real discussion on the topic.

My goal with this discussion :
I play at any level because my deck is designed to do so. I do about as well as my opponent or if it’s a cEDH deck a level or level and a half worst. However I don’t think we have an issue going near cEDH because of how our playgroup deals with infinite interaction or unfun play. We all want to have good games and sometimes they last a long time and anyone can pull it out and other times someone just gets lucky with timing, disruption and the right cards coming up as they need to. We want those times to happen rarely or if they come up often they should be able to be out played/disrupted.

As for how someone deals with wining or losing. Well we have some vary competive people, but I feel like for the most part everyone wants a chance or fair shake to win the game. When they don’t feel like they got to ‘play’ is when their fun usually dries up. We had a game this weekend where everyone, but one person was playing the game and they felt way behind. However once their deck is set up it’s usually vary hard to beat being a blue/green Kurpix god deck. The one time they did something that mattered is when they counter my omniscience to prevent me from winning the game. Even if that game didn’t go their way, they still felt like it was a game that they participated in.

Some of my favorite games are the ones I’ve lost because something absolutely crazy happened off of a warp world resolving or possbility storm shenanigans on the stack. What our group is seeking is a fulfilling game which can be hard to come by if people try to play Armageddon and it’s whoever is lucky enough to drop removal or cast creatures on the stack or topdeck lands first wins.

I don’t understand the rational when someone gets on another persons case for being crtitcal or opinionated of the thing they love. If you don’t have an opinion or can’t see the flaws of something are you truly a fan of that thing?

My group would have liked it if WotC kept developing cards inside the shell of standard because they are imperfect, but the Commanders/generals they’ve printed inside standard have all been fine with vary few exceptions. Those exceptions are on the banned list. Geiselbrand is powerful, but not too much more then Consecrated Spinx. Still I don’t totally understand the difference in nim death mantle being ‘worst’ then reoccuring nightmare, but how it’s still banned is based people generally being bad at math(taking long turns) and old text being able to keep it from getting removed. That’s another discussion that I’ve brought up with many different players and while most disagree with me on Geiselbrand. Those same players can’t rationalize why nim deathmantle is unbanned and reoccuring isn’t. So it’s a card we are testing out to see if it’s really something that outta be banned in our format of edh.

I want to know how other groups deal with these issues or what problems they've tried to solve and how they went about it. I've tried to explain to the best of my ability what we as a playgroup try to aim for when we sit down to play edh. Idk if this is a unanimous feeling among the entire community, but I think it's close to what everyone might be aiming for. A 'good game' with action, tension, and resolution as Mr Degradation puts it.

Example of a good game even if one of the players had sour grapes :
It’s a 4 person table,First turn after mine;mana drained someone’s 7cmc enchantment that was going to double their mana. Second players turn they try to establish a board with creatures. Goes to third players turn with mono black and cable coffers taps for 8. I cast word of command after he drawls a card, he then thinks about his response. Proceeds to tap out and silence the believer all relevant creatures to spend his mana. Looks at hand and sees all the set up I would have had to worry about. Crypt ghast, gauntlet of power, bubbling muck and a tutor for the wincon of his choosing.

He is not happy to get time walked outta his turn. Goes to my turn with 7 extra mana. I cast Aminatou's Augury and copy it with mirror pool. Cast a free 10 spells and everyone basically agrees the game is over.

The person who got word of command’d didn’t like how the game played out and it ended quite abruptly. Both the other players explained that those things had to take place at the right time for me to win the game I used 4 to 5 cards to win and even then nothing was guaranteed because I didn’t have scroll rack. Me and one of the other players even explained how it was no different then his monk black ‘combos’ using multiple mana doubling effects to kill everyone with exsanguinate.

That would be a time I had fun, listened to someone’s complaint and totally ignored their issues because not only did the table not agree with them, but they had no really logical argument for it. Also those spells don't come up like that often and are used differently every game.

That’s a recent example of how our games work.


Edit: I've made edits to this first page in an attempt to lay out in as clear as possible terms our playgroups opinions, play style, and ideas on the format. This in no way should be taken as, "the way you play is wrong" or "Play the game my way or get lost" any sentiment like this is not coming from this post nor is it the intent of this discussion. :facepalm:

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Deck list Jund creature combo (not updated)


Last edited by Thraximundar on 2019-May-31 4:39 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-02 7:42 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Trickbind can stop an activated ability from the command zone, i'm not sure what you mean?

How is this Wizards' fault that Emrakul and Paradox Engine are unbanned? I am not advocating either way, but the RC is still in control of that. We can dislike WOTC's decision to create dumb stuff like Derevi that cheats the rules of commander in some way (whatever degree we think they are even 'cheats') but the RC has the power to remove them when they become problems.

I would like cEDH and EDH to have different banlists, but the RC is not interested in managing 2 or anything competitive. And cEDH players have no interest in making a new format with more logical rules because then they would have to accept the fact that Mana Crypt/Sol Ring is an effed card, and they don't want to be told they can't play with stupid broken shit. I only play 2 formats, edh (true cEDH and dopey-er regular commander) and vintage, and i still think this :/

Like with anything referring to personal anecdotes, it's always helpful to try to step outside your normal frame of view. I have played regularly nonstop since before the first Commander Precons came out in many groups in multiple states and cities and i have honestly never really had much of any of the experience you describe.


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-02 9:28 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Yea pithing needle can stop activated abilities, but then they went ahead and printed a wizard commander that has a triggered activation from out side of the game. Trickbind can’t target that and it can’t be stopped unless you plan on play torpor orb effects. By no means are these generals an issue in cEDH, in fact they are laughable in comparison to Zur or any other top tier deck, but to keep printing cards that only come outta the commander product and only is used or most useful in the command zone seems dangerous indeed. I don’t understand the need to print cards outside of standard or with game changing rules. The command zone was fine before pre cons and if they want to make new commanders they should print it in the normal format. If anything cards like true name nemesis has been a terrible problem in legacy until people found the tech to beat it. You wouldn’t want that in modern or standard.

As far as I see it the more they, WotC, meddles in edh the more they ruin the format. Maybe using the social contract to keep people from going infinite or using sol ring is the only way to keep the game alive, but someone has to always ruin the play at the table by casting Armageddon. It’s enevtible that the two edh formats are not the same as playing with a handful of compete friends at a dinner table. People are always going to try to bend the rules for points or try something close to infinite and combo kill the board. It’s just part of playing with strangers. Some gamestores have a better meta and an understanding that people are not going to play with you or they will target you if they find your build unfun. So that might ultimately be the only way this works out.

My friends can’t stand perpelxing chimera + homeward path. It soft locks the game and forces untimely board wipes. We are moving to peasent commander one person at a time so this a discussion based on what I’ve seen. Most GP events are often cEDH and most store events are edh by point system.

I guess my main point is if they can’t print it in a magic set for standard does it really need to be printed at all?

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Deck list Jund creature combo (not updated)


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-02 9:31 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Thraximundar wrote:
printed a wizard commander that has a triggered activation from out side of the game. Trickbind can’t target that
It absolutely 100% can. The triggered ability goes on the stack like every other ability in the game, and it's the ability that Trickbind targets.

You're right in that the second part of Trickbinds ability doesn't function as the commander in the Command Zone is not a permanent, but you'll also note that the "shut off" ability only applied to activated abilities of the permanent, so even if Inalla was on the battlefield Trickbind still wouldn't stop the triggered ability from triggering again off the next wizard played anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-02 10:00 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Thraximundar wrote:
I don’t understand the need to print cards outside of standard or with game changing rules. The command zone was fine before pre cons and if they want to make new commanders they should print it in the normal format.

Thraximundar wrote:
If anything cards like true name nemesis has been a terrible problem in legacy until people found the tech to beat it. You wouldn’t want that in modern or standard.

Hmmm, am i mistaken, or did you immediately answer your own question? Cards are printed into Commander, Conspiracy, and Planechase so they don't have to have them in standard.

I don’t understand the need to print cards outside of standard or with game I don’t understand the need to print cards outside of standard or with game I guess my main point is if they can’t print it in a magic set for standard does it really need to be printed at all?[/quote]
I don't want to only play with watered down standard rares, and i don't pushed rares into standard (i don't play standard though).

It was great seeing conspiracy cards make into legacy and vintage, that might have been garbo on standard and modern.


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-02 2:38 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I need to go over your post again, there is a lot to it and I'm not in a mental state to fully appreciate it. However I do want to raise one exception regarding this part:
Quote:
since the release I’ve disliked the inability I have to play anything in JUND colors that can even match up to proosh. He is still the best even if you didn’t add the make kobolds


You begin the post discussing the origin of the format, the wholesome kitchen table format that is design to play cards that aren't the most powerful, but work in a casual format.

The format was not, and I believe still is not, about playing the best cards. I would argue Xira is a better jund commander, because how many Jund commanders draw cards? Plus I get to play Jund untap shenanigans.

My point here is you are choosing to measure things against a Prossh shaped yard stick, but that is your choice (and perhaps your metas choice). There is a best deck out there, somewhere. cEDH is doing it's best to find it. However I believe, and I suspect you believe, the point of EDH was never to play the best deck, it was just to play.

Are you suggesting that Commander has gone so far from that? That people have to play whats best instead of what they like?

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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-03 4:19 am 
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I started playing with Fallen Empires. I stopped at Odyssey. My friends did too. We specifically got back into the game because of EDH when the first WotC Commander product hit shelves. Now we all play weekly and even go to prereleases to get our hands on new toys for our favorite commanders. So it's not all lose old players or gain new players.

There are always going to be cards that push people's buttons. And they will be different from person to person. In the end, beyond running answers, communication is key. If you have a problem with a particular card, bring it up to the group. Maybe they feel the same way about it. Maybe they don't because they have a strategy for dealing with it that you may not have thought of.

Beyond the advice of using "Rule 0" with your group or communicating with them, I do have a thought on Homeward Path.

You mention Insurrection and other steal cards, and their cost compared to Homeward Path's. I do think one key point here is that Homeward Path is not a surprise, whereas steal spells are. You see that a person(s) have the land. So if you are playing steal spells, run answers. There are a lot of good answers for Homeward Path, both in various colors, and in other lands. Heck, I like running a few of the "destroy target non-basic land" lands in my decks because I play blue and I don't want a pesky land to stand in the way of me and pushing my opponent's face in, whether it be a Homeward Path or a Maze of Ith.


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-03 12:00 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Thraximundar wrote:

Because we are tired of the format we generally just ban sol ring and all infinite combos. When there is an issue with a card we talk about it and take it out when we play each other. I take out protein hulk and emrakul and we end up having better games for it.
Signing off


Whatever works for your group is fine, I personally don't like ban list at all but I respect the RC's so is my playgroup

Some cards are overrated also, I dropped Sol ring from a lot of my decks, because I think if I am not ramping to something then.. why using it? I rather have an extra land.

T1 or T2 sol ring makes people got nervous, T5 sol ring is not that great, maybe I am just playing bad, but right now none of my decks has sol ring in it

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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-07 12:58 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
:o wow! I want to start by thanking everyone for replying to my post regardless of the aweful grammar and spelling issues that it has. I’m going to go ahead and try to reply to all the post I’ve seen from earliest to latest. Going to attempt to check this weekly at the vary least to keep the conversation going.

“Hmmm, am i mistaken, or did you immediately answer your own question? Cards are printed into Commander, Conspiracy, and Planechase so they don't have to have them in standard.”

>>> so cards like silentblade oni are not an issue. Cards like truename nemesis are an issue. I’m happy wizards only made a few mistakes here and there and I appreciate that they keep those mistakes down. I dont like it when they feel the need to print stuff in pre construction commander decks that wouldn’t be printed/playable in standard. They warp the format by adding cast abilities and command zone abilities. It’s their card game so I really don’t have much say, but I make it a point to not buy any commander product or anything that seems like a money grab for the edh community overall. It’s one thing to make solid reprints for cards that are becoming way overpriced it is quite another to design cards outside the normal formats just for edh which warps the format around newer abilities that might not see design in the game otherwise. The example I used with true name is an outside of commander example, but shows cards that are too op for print inside of standard. Other examples inside of edh would include commanders that have no tax or don’t need to be played, commanders with ever benefiting cast abilities, commanders with activated or triggered abilities from the command zone (they fit in the same grouping as commanders of no tax or don’t need to be played).



“Are you suggesting that Commander has gone so far from that? That people have to play whats best instead of what they like?”

>>>I think magic will always have a net deck problem or why should I use this over that issue. People can’t help but compare cards to the ones most popular or ones that work best in their meta. That being the case even if proosh had a cast ability that only gives him 6 kobolds he is still a monster in casual play. Just being an easy sac engine on a flying dragon is cool enough, but the board pressure/presence makes him the best and I wanted to play Darigaaz Reincarnated, but I’m not going to leave my self open to losing games I can win off of having a better commander. Darigaaz Reincarnated Is also an example of how commander cards should be printed. It cheats commander tax and no one complains about it because it’s an ability they printed inside the shell of the game format. It’s a constant struggle to keep what you like to do instead of playing the most optimized list you can make. The closer you get to cEDH the further you step away from the original intent of the format. Which is why we just banned all infinite’s.

“You mention Insurrection and other steal cards, and their cost compared to Homeward Path's. I do think one key point here is that Homeward Path is not a surprise, whereas steal spells are. You see that a person(s) have the land. So if you are playing steal spells, run answers. There are a lot of good answers for Homeward Path, both in various colors, and in other lands. Heck, I like running a few of the "destroy target non-basic land" lands in my decks because I play blue and I don't want a pesky land to stand in the way of me and pushing my opponent's face in, whether it be a Homeward Path or a Maze of Ith.”

>>>>So I don’t have an issue with homeward path, but I do see how it has influenced the format and maybe wasn’t designed in a way that made sense with cards that have already been printed IE brand and mystifying maze. The card should have had an activation with red or for at least three mana in its cost. This would mean someone would have to actual leave recourses up to activate it. Some in my playgroup outright hate this card because it ruins cards like Chainer/Geth, bribery, desertion, etc etc. I play pithing needle and scrab god as a work around to the card, but it’s hard to argue for the card when a 25 cent rare makes it an even greater issue on a board of 5 players. Perpelxing chrimra is such a House with the card. You could say something like Olivia can just turn it into a vampire and steal it more then once a turn, but it cost mana vs tapping one land. It’s just way too efficient at what it does. So I hope they print product with that thought in mind. I assume that the card was printed because people didn’t like their stuff being taken away from them and I can understand that however mysifiying maze dealt with that before they printed homeward path. Making a card completely unplayable over another doesn’t seem like a good design choice..

“Some cards are overrated also, I dropped Sol ring from a lot of my decks, because I think if I am not ramping to something then.. why using it? I rather have an extra land.

T1 or T2 sol ring makes people got nervous, T5 sol ring is not that great, maybe I am just playing bad, but right now none of my decks has sol ring in it”

>>> So I totally agree with you on sol ring. It’s broken in half in early game and not so good late game. It’s better in some decks and should be considered unplayable in others, but that’s where my issue with the card starts.

Sol ring has to be played in just about every deck. Why is that the case? Because anyone not playing sol ring feels like they are playing behind. So instead of making decks designed to play the game people inadvertently or in spite of their better judgement play sol ring to feel up the par with everyone else. Banning sol ring shouldn’t be an issue. The card has been over printed and yet still rest around 5-10$ depending on the print/condition. People don’t have to get nervous over early ramp in every deck and cEDH wouldn’t miss it all that much (assuming they would like another open slot). Games with people in the optimized list of 6-9 (scale 1-10) will end on turns 9-10 instead of turn 7 and people will generally have an open slot for pithing needle or silent grave stone if they still want to play trinket mage without it. Mana crypt deals enough damage to the owner to not be an issue and doesn’t see much play in an optimized field. If it does see play it can deal 15-21 damage before the game ends which makes it general a more fair sol ring imo.

:|

Sorry if I didn’t add the usernames for the quotes I’m using a phone to reply and I hope we can continue this thread. While I agree with many of you on what or how to play the game in one way or another. I think where we differ is mostly due to cards and how they are printed in the context of the game overall. Would these cards my group complains about see print in standard? If not should they have been printed?

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Deck list Thraximundar midrange/control

Deck list Jund creature combo (not updated)


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-08 2:54 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
I am happy with WoTC immersion at EDH for many reasons:

1. Twisting the reserve list: I hate the reserve list very much (I have some cards that are in that list), I would love to see all of them reprinted so more people can get those cards, because after all this is a game and we need cards to play it.

Thanks to WoTC involmente now we have cards like sea of clouds, wich are 95% (because they cannot be fetched they miss the last 5%) as good as a origininal dual for EDH and just as bad as a guilgate for any other format, so this ia wayy to streach the rules of that reserve list and print realy valuable cards for EDH.

In that sense, we can expect maybe fetchlands that enter tapped unless you have 3 or more opponents and many other goodstuff they cant reprint

2. Problem solving: I lovehomeward path, and it is just an example of the topic, many deks can't handle steal efects, and this land solves that issue at least for creatures, WoTC printing such cards allows players to have more options

3. Precons: Precons aere an awesome way to enter this format because you can just sleeve a precon and play, you may not win in a table with very customized EDH decks but I have seen precons doing a great job (in a non cuttroath environment).

My playgroup started with precons, all my firends were former MTG players that quitted playing because rotations and fast formats, etc. Then one day I proposed to buy precons to play and from that day foward we play EDH

4. New commanders: Every precon gives us a lot of new generals that are built for commander in mind, you jmay like or dislike those, but some people (like me) loves that thing, I am always expecting the spoilers of the Commander set every year looking for new cards

And for the rest of considerations

1. Banning cards not banned by RC: I just dont like it, I dont even like some bans in the RC, I know some playgroups have their own bans, I heard about a playgroup (in a Commandzone video) that has any kind of countermagic banned, if they work for them, ok. I won't play in such groups, I won't accept those bans even if I am not playing such cards.

I mean, while I don't play sol ring in many of myd ecks I won't allow to be taking away the posibility

2. Baning fast combos: Again, this is a playgroup consideration, I won't play in a table were all the players plays T4 combos, but I have played in a table were 1 players did, I was playing my Markov deck and was deleted by T4 by combat damage, the message was sent and the player took another deck. Self policy is useful in that cases, but off course if 3 people plays T4 fast combos then, maybe we dont fit in that table

3. Banning infinites: unless is a T4-6 combo, I am not against infinites, some decks don't have a direct way to win without a combo or combo-like wincon, my markov will try to beat faces up, but my Oloro creatureless will try to kill the table at once by other means.


All decks try to do some powerfull stuff, I have seenn green decks ramp as hell by T4 hardcasting very silly things, should we ban ramp?


EDIT:

I have one more reason to think WOTC involment in the format is great.

Wotc says that they do not acknolegde prices of the secondary market but... that is not really true, and we can see that in their reluctancy to include some useful reprints in Commanders set

Why they dint include sense's divining top and scroll rack in C18 top of the deck maters deck? those are cards that are banned or just played in EDH

They dont want to include such things because then the MSP of 40-50 bucks is just too low and may cause problems with card hoarders/resellers, so it seems fine.

But... they can print new powerfull studd with a lot of value for zero dollars, for example, we have Teferi's protection , that today it worts more than the sealed precon at the begining of the sale and it will only continue to rise (today it is at 49,99 at CK)

So, we actually got a 50 dollar card in that precon after all, just not a reprint, each new precon is an oportunity to have powerfull and expesinve cards for cheap, so.. Ill take it

_________________
Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
K'rrik, son of yawgmoth The current updated decklist is here


Last edited by alexev on 2019-May-09 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-08 3:13 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
While I think the solution that WotC comes up with, IE homeward path, have as many or more issues with them. I will agree to disagree at this moment because our play groups and power level differ therefore the prospective of what seems fun or unfun is fairly different.

As for how they ramp out on turn 4, it sounds like the same issue my group had until we banned sol ring. I was able to resolve me general on turn 3/4 and start killing people without mercy and hold up counter magic in grixes colors (blue,black, and red). We found the issue to be extreamly fast mana so banning sol ring was the most healthy option because even if you removed sol ring on turn 2 if they played a turn 3 ramp off it they were still two turns ahead. Answering sol ring isn’t as much of an issue as dealing with the aftermath.

You didn’t give me much details as to what else you might be playing in the meta so I’m making an assumption that sol ring and maybe fast mana like it is to blame. Would have been nice if you elaborated on why you think the new product for commander is so great in spite of the examples I gave. IE perpelxing chimera and ultimately nerfing blue, black, and red list overall.

Tbh blue and black is fairly overpowered I wish they kept the ‘tuck rule’ because it helped white and red list have power inside of the format.

Most of our bans are generally made of the game feels unfun for the group so ultimately it’s up to you and your friends on what is generally good/bad to play.

For us ending the game before turn 7 was not the way we wanted to play so we fixed that.

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Deck list Jund creature combo (not updated)


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-08 3:48 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Thraximundar wrote:
As for how they ramp out on turn 4, it sounds like the same issue my group had until we banned sol ring. I was able to resolve me general on turn 3/4 and start killing people without mercy and hold up counter magic in grixes colors (blue,black, and red). We found the issue to be extreamly fast mana so banning sol ring was the most healthy option because even if you removed sol ring on turn 2 if they played a turn 3 ramp off it they were still two turns ahead. Answering sol ring isn’t as much of an issue as dealing with the aftermath.


The ring is jut one card, then you have mana crypt, mana vault, dark ritual and a lot more

Thraximundar wrote:
You didn’t give me much details as to what else you might be playing in the meta so I’m making an assumption that sol ring and maybe fast mana like it is to blame. Would have been nice if you elaborated on why you think the new product for commander is so great in spite of the examples I gave. IE perpelxing chimera and ultimately nerfing blue, black, and red list overall.


My meta is what I call "casual competitive", we build our decks to win, we dont like fast combos (we dont banned it, we just dont play it because we dont like), we play Narset, Mairsil, Atraxa, Breya, Oloro, Markov, Sidisi, Alesha and a long etcetera.

I love the precons because that things allow Wotc to push the limits, giving us cool options for deckbuilding, easy and good entry points for players, I dont think Homeward path has taken the crown out of Mystifying maze or maze of ith, those 3 cards serves different purposes

In my Oloro deck I rather play mystifyng maze than homeward path, because I have no creatures so I dont care, but the maze allows me to exile a creature so it is very strong against enchanted creatures, etc. So, having homeward path has not made irrelevant the any of the mazes



Thraximundar wrote:
Most of our bans are generally made of the game feels unfun for the group so ultimately it’s up to you and your friends on what is generally good/bad to play.

For us ending the game before turn 7 was not the way we wanted to play so we fixed that.


My playgroup has no bans at all (except for the RC's bans), and none of our games ends before T6-7, When I play Oloro, no game takes less than 15-20 turns whatever I win or not (not kidding), the fastest gun in town is my vampire beatdown deck that if lucky can kill the table by T5, but if I my memory dont fail I think the fastest win I had was at Turn 6 in a 4 man table, but the other players had fast decks too so by T6 only 2 of us had been alive and I have cero mana rocks in that deck, so sol ring is not an issue

_________________
Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
K'rrik, son of yawgmoth The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-08 4:01 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
“All decks try to do some powerfull stuff, I have seenn green decks ramp as hell by T4 hardcasting very silly things, should we ban ramp?”

That was your question.. I told you my experiences with specifically sol ring and how my group didn’t like infinite because it felt less like edh and more like commander. Which from my first post are inherently different formats. I’m sorry if there seems to be a bit of miscommunication or if there might be sarcasm in your post. Trying to clarify if you actually have an issue with green list ramping out something on t4 vs asking if I believe a green deck should be ramping out some big creature/spell in our format at t4. Also let me clarify my deck is at an 8 or 9 out 10 without infinite combos. I play vs cEDH all the time and the only thing my deck is missing is the fast mana and glass cannon combos. Just wanted to make sure we are on the same page -.-

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Deck list Jund creature combo (not updated)


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-08 4:09 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Thraximundar wrote:
“All decks try to do some powerfull stuff, I have seenn green decks ramp as hell by T4 hardcasting very silly things, should we ban ramp?”

That was your question.. I told you my experiences with specifically sol ring and how my group didn’t like infinite because it felt less like edh and more like commander. Which from my first post are inherently different formats. I’m sorry if there seems to be a bit of miscommunication or if there might be sarcasm in your post. Trying to clarify if you actually have an issue with green list ramping out something on t4 vs asking if I believe a green deck should be ramping out some big creature/spell in our format at t4. Also let me clarify my deck is at an 8 or 9 out 10 without infinite combos. I play vs cEDH all the time and the only thing my deck is missing is the fast mana and glass cannon combos. Just wanted to make sure we are on the same page -.-


I dont play against cEDH decks, because I like to play long games and my playgroup just not like those neither.

When I say "we should ban ramp?" was not sarcasm nor a question, just a rethoric one (my natal tongue is not english so is 99% posible I am just expressing myself poorly)

I am the kind of player that just "adapt" to the situation, when some people in my playgroup started to ramp as hell then I jkust added more instant boardwipes and problem solved.

_________________
Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
K'rrik, son of yawgmoth The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: I’ve been playing for a Decade+ and this is how I feel
AgePosted: 2019-May-08 4:32 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-29 9:42 pm
Age: Drake
Ok I think I understand what your talking about. I think cards have answers in the game, some more then others, but the issue I face when I cast emrakul the promised end vs my friend who plays mono black chainer with necropotance on board is always, “well of course I’m going to kill him”. I’m dealing with people who are not having fun and I keep killing them in the same way and I don’t have fun because of it. Even without necropotance I think emrakul and mindslaver effects are way too strong for most casual groups. Which is why I play word of command to get the same effect without the social/inevitable issues that emrakul present to the table.

It’s the same reason why we were quick to ban prime evil titan. People were playing cards that would purposely abuse the card instead of cards to remove it because the person who abused it most won that game. The game became more about how many times can I take, reanimate, flicker, bounce primeval titan and less about anything else happening within that game. The card is not all that powerful, but if and when something like it warps the play of your format to that degree banning it seems to be the only option.

My list has adapted to homeward path by playing around it and even including it in my list as a way of soft controlling the board. I just wish it had an activation cost to it. Also people should play pithing needle to keep it from effecting their game if they want a solid answer, but that doesn’t stop people from having sour grapes over a vary rare ability in the game.

At one point we had an issue with chancellor of the spires, but I had taken out two spells it targeted most often and that cut the power level of the card down. So sometimes the best strategy is to take out powerful cards your opponent abuses. This doesn’t work with primeval titan because everyone plays lands so you have to choose to ban a card from your deck or just ban it from the pool in general.

Tbh bans happen because people are too irresponsible to not play cards that negativity effect the format. It’s hard to explain to someone why they shouldn’t play primeval titan when it helps their deck so much even though that’s probably the reason they lose the game in the first place.

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Deck list Thraximundar midrange/control

Deck list Jund creature combo (not updated)


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