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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-20 6:58 am 
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paragon_deku wrote:
To add on to the ever present argument of "the banlist isn't a big deal because you can just talk to your pod," I made a coalition victory oriented WUBRG deck (not a strong one, very budget), and in every single pod I played with last night there was at least one person who berated me over DARING to suggest if I could play with a banned card. I don't think the RC realizes how big of an impact the list has on the average player without a dedicated playgroup.


Shhh. We seemed to have reached a shaky ceasefire between the Nobly Vehement Defenders of the RC and the unwashed, frothing hominids from Reddit. Don't wake them back up by showing reasonable, albeit anecdotal, evidence. Both sides get irrationally upset and this topic becomes the internet equivalent of skid marked tighty whiteys in a Wal-Mart parking lot.

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Last edited by kirkusjones on 2019-Jul-20 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-20 9:05 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
paragon_deku wrote:
To add on to the ever present argument of "the banlist isn't a big deal because you can just talk to your pod," I made a coalition victory oriented WUBRG deck (not a strong one, very budget), and in every single pod I played with last night there was at least one person who berated me over DARING to suggest if I could play with a banned card. I don't think the RC realizes how big of an impact the list has on the average player without a dedicated playgroup.


And there in lies the issue. There are cards that people have that they might want to play, but the baseline of the format is trying to be upheld to enable anyone, with any deck, to be able to (technically) play with anyone else and have a reasonable expectation of what to expect. It's just a difficult hill to die on in favor of something like Paradox Engine being banned when a whole plethora of 2 and 3 card combos exist in the format...

I don't think that each enabler should be banned or that all of the combos should be, but it's a strange choice when it's not the quintessential combo piece or boogeyman of the format.

The social contract only goes so far outside of established playgroups and metas. While there should be a conversation before games are played as to the perceived power level of the decks being played, "casual" people with their janky homunculus tribal deck shouldn't ever expect to hang with the more tuned or synergistic decks.

Slippery slopes all around here
* Requesting the unbanning/allowance from a known play group might very well lead to the request of allowing some of the other, longer standing banned cards that are known to be more problematic. Chaos may ensue.
* Expecting new players to adapt and evolve their decks to become better players/deckbuilders and to better compete in a group/shop can start an arms race. Which is something we definitely don't want for the health of the format.

I've found that the 75-80% rule is ideal in a nice happy middle ground that can pop off sometimes or with some consistency, but isn't a guarantee. It packs enough answers to fight combos, enough threats that it doesn't fold to many things and perhaps even has some lines of play that people might not expect.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-20 10:09 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-28 9:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Damidhol, Tuhel
I've read through this entire thread.

What I see re: the EDH community reminds me of what happened to Magic in its early days: it has gotten so large and the player base so diverse that it may be time to break it into different formats, e.g. Traditional EDH and Competitive EDH, much as what happened ages ago with the creation of Vintage and Type Two formats.

I see this as a positive development, to be honest. The fact that there are so many different players and play styles that it is forcing these discussions indicates to me that the format is very healthy, to the point that further outgrowth is now necessary in order to meet player's needs.

So the question becomes: are there qualified people ready and willing to define the rules of the competitive game, and serve as basically a new RC for the format? People who can parse the ban lists and make rules that a large majority of competitive players can get behind? People that will be respected as the new format's leaders?

If so, then as Papa Funk commented here, fame awaits you!

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 6:09 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Wyvern
paragon_deku wrote:
To add on to the ever present argument of "the banlist isn't a big deal because you can just talk to your pod," I made a coalition victory oriented WUBRG deck (not a strong one, very budget), and in every single pod I played with last night there was at least one person who berated me over DARING to suggest if I could play with a banned card. I don't think the RC realizes how big of an impact the list has on the average player without a dedicated playgroup.


There are too many questions to ask here to really get to the heart of the issue. The most important are these:
1. If you don't have a dedicated group, but have access to all these people playing in pods, why can't you create a dedicated group with the people you meet that are potentially open to a conversation about coalition victory games?
2. Why are you in pods, and if it is for prizes, isn't it reasonable that people want to not play games with a card they've been warned causes wins that are too easy to be as fun as you'd think?

Based on this, there might be a path to you getting to play the card, but it doesn't provide anything that seems like a clear way for the RC to make changes that help you at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 8:38 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Dee123 wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
To add on to the ever present argument of "the banlist isn't a big deal because you can just talk to your pod," I made a coalition victory oriented WUBRG deck (not a strong one, very budget), and in every single pod I played with last night there was at least one person who berated me over DARING to suggest if I could play with a banned card. I don't think the RC realizes how big of an impact the list has on the average player without a dedicated playgroup.


There are too many questions to ask here to really get to the heart of the issue. The most important are these:
1. If you don't have a dedicated group, but have access to all these people playing in pods, why can't you create a dedicated group with the people you meet that are potentially open to a conversation about coalition victory games?
2. Why are you in pods, and if it is for prizes, isn't it reasonable that people want to not play games with a card they've been warned causes wins that are too easy to be as fun as you'd think?

Based on this, there might be a path to you getting to play the card, but it doesn't provide anything that seems like a clear way for the RC to make changes that help you at this point.

1. I can never organize or guarantee who will be in the LGS at what time or day. The entire point of doing FNM is so you can play if you don’t have a playgroup.
2. They’re icebreakers to make sure everyone who shows up gets to play before people break apart into their own games.

There is no clear path when the banlist has such an effect on the average player that they assume any card that’s banned is so broken that you should get to mock someone for even suggesting they play with it. I’m pointing out another situation where the RC and fanboys are out of touch. It’s clear when saying “bro just talk to your group lmao” they don’t genuinely understand how hard that can be with random people.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 9:07 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
paragon_deku wrote:
There is no clear path when the banlist has such an effect on the average player that they assume any card that’s banned is so broken that you should get to mock someone for even suggesting they play with it. I’m pointing out another situation where the RC and fanboys are out of touch. It’s clear when saying “bro just talk to your group lmao” they don’t genuinely understand how hard that can be with random people.

I just don't think people are mocking you for asking that question. I think people are saying 'no' and you are twisting it.

People at multiple LGSs ask stuff like 'can we do Partial Paris' or 'can I run this split card' and no one mocks them. Often people say no.

Absolutely it can be hard to get random people to agree to changes. But a lot of that reason is people KNOW why the cards are banned, and/or have been burned by them before. Rule zero certainly isn't a catch-all for LGS play, which is why such play can be more difficult, as the RC has said.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 9:08 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Wyvern
I met people at prereleases that have become my best friends. Maybe instead of viewing people as 'random people' instead of potential friends is part of the problem? It is a social format so building relationships makes it better in my opinion.

What you are describing sounds transactional instead of social. I am still not sure what the RC can do to help you. You are asking them to change what they think is best for the whole world of players to fit your situation where people don't want to be friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 9:24 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
paragon_deku wrote:
I’m pointing out another situation where the RC and fanboys are out of touch. It’s clear when saying “bro just talk to your group lmao” they don’t genuinely understand how hard that can be with random people.


Hard=/=Not worth doing

If you really feel a card should be unbanned, being able to articulate why to a group of strangers is a necessary skill, no? Honestly if you asked me in a random group I’d probably be interested in seeing what you’ve done, once at least. I’ve been known to slot un-cards into decks if I think they’re a good fit, and that always means explaining what they do any why they’re appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 9:30 am 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
I’m pointing out another situation where the RC and fanboys are out of touch. It’s clear when saying “bro just talk to your group lmao” they don’t genuinely understand how hard that can be with random people.


Hard=/=Not worth doing

If you really feel a card should be unbanned, being able to articulate why to a group of strangers is a necessary skill, no? Honestly if you asked me in a random group I’d probably be interested in seeing what you’ve done, once at least. I’ve been known to slot un-cards into decks if I think they’re a good fit, and that always means explaining what they do any why they’re appropriate.

I have articulated why, and even had my friend articulate why to support me. I don’t know what kind of LGS’s you guys go to but mine are full of obese white dudes half of which have never heard of deodorant who freak out if you do anything to change the status quo. I got told by someone who popped off in 3 turns with godo + helm of the host that I was trying to unfairly rig the game by playing with a “banned card.” You go through all the talking points and motions but ultimately the culture of the shops where you live is gonna control a lot. And before you ask why I don’t just play with my friend, it gets really boring playing against the same 3 decks in 1v1.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 11:04 am 
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paragon_deku wrote:
I don’t know what kind of LGS’s you guys go to but mine are full of obese white dudes half of which have never heard of deodorant who freak out if you do anything to change the status quo.

From earlier in this thread:

paragon_deku wrote:
...but I regularly play at two fairly big LGS's and no one I talk to in person is generally favorable towards the RC. I've had several people say they want Sheldon to step down. I don't care either way.

If most of the people you talk to are generally unfavorable to the RC--even to the point of openly expressing desire to see them stop being the RC--then wouldn't that suggest they're possibly open to experimenting with a different ruleset/banlist?

It's also not really very nice to generalize a bunch of people in such a negative way.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 4:10 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jun-06 6:25 am
Age: Drake
Segrus wrote:
paragon_deku wrote:
If most of the people you talk to are generally unfavorable to the RC--even to the point of openly expressing desire to see them stop being the RC--then wouldn't that suggest they're possibly open to experimenting with a different ruleset/banlist?

Most of the people think the RC are generally unfavorable. Not all of them or even most of them have suggested it be dissolved. Regardless, many still wish to play with the banlist because their disdain stems from one or two bans (or lack thereof) and they generally ignore the rest. Coalition Victory is one of the most requested unbans and yet it can still cause a ruckus since even though people don't LIKE the banlist, they're still going to listen to some of it.

"Paradox engine should be unbanned (because I play with it), but all the others? No way jose."

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-21 4:26 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well I am sure you inclusive and welcoming attitude goes a long way towards making them see your ideas have merit.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-22 12:40 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
paragon_deku wrote:
Coalition Victory is one of the most requested unbans and yet it can still cause a ruckus since even though people don't LIKE the banlist, they're still going to listen to some of it.

Coalition Victory is the card YOU have most requested for unbanning, it is not THE most requested unban. In five years on this forum yours is the only topic I have seen that asked for it. Recurring nightmare, prime time, Braids, all very commonly requested, but not CV.

If your perception of what is true for you and what is true for the community around is can be warped in that way, I suspect it is similarly warped in the perception of your LGS.

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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-22 3:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Having Your Voice Heard
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-23 1:09 am 
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To address something rahvin2015 mentioned some pages back: we're well aware that we're making the rules (in the hard and fast sense) for the format. We take it quite seriously.

As to a number of other comments, Rule 0 is not a cop out of any kind. That's why it begins with "these are the rules." It's an encouragement, as Toby said, to folks who might not otherwise be confident enough to strike out on their own.

One of the issues that recent discussions have uncovered is the difficulty some people face in implementing Rule 0 when they're in an unfamiliar environment. These conversations can sometimes be quite awkward and uncomfortable, and they're why the banned list exists. So there's Rule 0, then there's the banned list if that doesn't work. We have to consider that some people see it the other way around--the list takes priority over Rule 0. That's fair.

Here's the upshot of all this. We're going to continue to focus Commander on the audience for whom it was originally intended. What's we're ALSO going to do is try to find space where the other part of the audience isn't alienated. It's a tough needle to thread, but we're going to give it a shot anyway. This thread and others like it are looking for methods to make it happen. If you think that you're unwelcome because we don't do exactly what you want, I'm not sure I can actually help you. If you're willing to accept who are target is and help us help you even if you're not that target, then there's room for us to talk. We're going to do better at not using language that alienates, and we hope that if you're part of the group that's feeling marginalized, you understand that we're reaching out to you.

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