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 Post subject: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 7:14 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So somewhat inspired by the talk of the Reserved List I have tried to find a topic where we talk about the best ways to fix mana bases but including budget constraints. I understand that card values fluctuate and not everybody has the same definition of "Budget" but let's try to put something together so that people that are looking to upgrade their mana bases have a reference. I am thinking about those that can spend $10 for example, what do they get? If I were talking about today, I would recommend that they snag the Temple of Malady etc. for a 3c deck that includes G/B/x and all the other on color Temples (and it would probably be less than $10 at the moment too!).

I found a pretty good article here https://themanabase.com/the-metaworker-lets-talk-lands/ it is a little old but the premise is largely what I was going for. Here is an even older article that is referenced but very relevant for those that didn't read the previous article: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/

So if you had to list the top Dual Lands what would you put as the top 5? My Personal Opinion?

Fetch lands Flooded Strand etc.
Original Duals Tundra
Shocks Hallowed Fountain
Battlebond/Multi Sea of Clouds
Painlands Adarkar Wastes

and then it gets a little murky...

Tango Lands Prairie Stream
Fast Lands Seachrome Coast
Check Lands Glacial Fortress
Temples Temple of Enlightenment
Filter Lands Skycloud Expanse and Mystic Gate
Mandlands Celestial Colonnade is a lot better than Needle Spires so where they fall on this list is very subjective
Reveal lands Port Town

Then even murkier...

Tribal Wanderwine Hub
Storage lands Calciform Pools
Refuge Sejiri Refuge
Guildgate Azorius Guildgate
Karoo lands Azorius Chancery
Snow Taplands Boreal Shelf
Triple lands Arcane Sanctum
Taplands Coastal Tower


I tried to be as exhaustive as possible while ignoring the just terrible ones (Salt Flats, Land Cap, Thalakos Lowlands and Mogg Hollows) but let me know if I missed something and if you don't agree in my rankings. I did update the list with some that I missed, if you think I should update with the ones I feel are just terrible let me know. Also please let me know if you feel my rankings are wrong (with why they are wrong/could be improved please).

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


Last edited by Inkeyes22 on 2019-Jul-27 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 9:08 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
You missed a couple, like the Reveal lands (Port Town), the the Karoo lands (Azorius Chancery), the Snow Taplands (Boreal Shelf), the Depletion lands (Land Cap), the Slow lands (Thalakos Lowlands), and the Triple lands (Arcane Sanctum, etc)

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http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=233412#p233412


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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 9:17 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
For me, excepting ABUR since I have less than a handful:

ONS/ZEN Fetches
Shocklands
Horizon Lands
Checklands
SHM/EVE Filters

Painlands
ODY Filters
Tangos
Slow Fetches
Temples

Fastlands
Guild Karoos

In reality I use shocks, checks, pains, and temples most often, but that’s an availability thing more than a power one.

Edit: Due to skimming I missed the sub-$10 part. I’ll leave this as is and we can just ignore the Horizons and ZEN Fetches.

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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 10:29 am 
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Joined: 2018-Nov-03 1:03 pm
Age: Wyvern
Although this list was curated with cEDH in mind, I think it's a useful starting point. I'm not a fan of tapped lands unless they're absolutely necessary due to budget concerns or anything else, so I think this is particularly useful is helping to dodge some of those. That said, most of the cards on here are in the $7-15 range, so there are definitely other choices out there for a tighter budget than might allow for some of these.

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/budget-cedh-mana-base/

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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-26 12:51 pm 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
There are so many good lands now. I didn't even bother getting the battlebond ones, which are cool designs for what we do. I really like the Eventide ones the best. They work well with the format to turn basics into duals.

I also like the old signet style ones since they let me use lands that have fun abilities and tap for colorless generate colored mana. That is the cycle I most want to see completed. Of those lands like strip mine and wasteland, in this format, I find blowing up the karoo lands to be a bad play. You just cost someone tempo, but miss on being able to destroy the high value stuff that comes out later. So I view karoos as good and safe, but your experience may vary.

I have fetchlands but don't like playing them anymore. I avoid shuffling now. It all depends on what you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-27 2:01 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Should we include lands that are not part of a fill cycle?

Such as the Canopy Lands: Nurturing Peatland
Nimbus Maze

What about 5c Lands such as:

City of Brass
Command Tower
Exotic Orchard
Forbidden Orchard
Gemstone Mine
Mana Confluence
Reflecting Pool
Spire of Industry
Tarnished Citadel

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-27 2:28 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
There are already resources for this, like EDHrec or mtgnexus's land directory app.

Moreover, this isn't necessarily a good strategy for building a mana base. For example, a five color green style deck might only wants dual lands with the Forest type, so it can search them with Wood Elves. Maybe there's a Karador deck that wants to keep recycling Myriad Landscape and Blighted Woodland, so it needs a high basic count. Maybe there's a Tymna/Sidar deck that wants to start attacking as quickly as possible, so it really does need all the A-list, enters untapped lands.

Fixing a deck's mana base starts with, "What is this deck trying to do?" not, "What are the dual lands this deck could run?"

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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-28 4:17 am 

Joined: 2019-Jul-18 7:14 am
Age: Drake
Excellent point Kemev.


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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-28 4:50 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
There are already resources for this, like EDHrec or mtgnexus's land directory app.

Moreover, this isn't necessarily a good strategy for building a mana base. For example, a five color green style deck might only wants dual lands with the Forest type, so it can search them with Wood Elves. Maybe there's a Karador deck that wants to keep recycling Myriad Landscape and Blighted Woodland, so it needs a high basic count. Maybe there's a Tymna/Sidar deck that wants to start attacking as quickly as possible, so it really does need all the A-list, enters untapped lands.

Fixing a deck's mana base starts with, "What is this deck trying to do?" not, "What are the dual lands this deck could run?"


While I agree, for some decks it is just what can I replace my Golgari Guildgate with? Even if other sites do something similar, I thought it would be interesting getting other opinions. There have been things mentioned here that have been more thought provoking than articles written on some sites so generating discussion is pretty much the whole point of this thread. If you are not interested in it that is fine. I am just tired of the same topic being discussed on 5 different threads here. I want something else to look at when I come here.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-10 3:01 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
To facilitate discussion and/or allow re-organizing by effectiveness/strategy I put together the following lists.

Please let me know what I missed...


Non-Basic Mono Cycles (+): Mono-colored producing lands that may be considered. Often in mono or dual colored decks.

Mono Sac Lands
Crystal Vein
Ruins of Trokair
Svyelunite Temple
Ebon Stronghold
Dwarven Ruins
Havenwood Battleground

Artifact Lands
Darksteel Citadel
Ancient Den
Seat of the Synod
Vault of Whispers
Great Furnace
Tree of Tales

Blighted Lands
Blighted Steppe
Blighted Cataract
Blighted Fen
Blighted Gorge
Blighted Woodland

Memorials
Memorial to Glory
Memorial to Genius
Memorial to Folly
Memorial to War
Memorial to Unity

Desert Painlands
Shefet Dunes
Ipnu Rivulet
Ifnir Deadlands
Ramunap Ruins
Hashep Oasis

Depletion lands
Remote Farm
Saprazzan Skerry
Peat Bog
Sandstone Needle
Hickory Woodlot

Mono-Cycling Lands
Blasted Landscape
Secluded Steppe
Drifting Meadow
Desert of the True
Lonely Sandbar
Remote Isle
Desert of the Mindful
Barren Moor
Polluted Mire
Desert of the Glorified
Forgotten Cave
Smoldering Crater
Desert of the Fervent
Tranquil Thicket
Slippery Karst
Desert of Indomitable

Sac X Lands
Scorched Ruins
Kjeldoran Outpost
Soldevi Excavations
Lake of the Dead
Balduvian Trading Post
Heart of Yavimaya
Lotus Vale

Hideaway Lands
Windbrisk Heights
Shelldock Isle
Howltooth Hollow
Spinerock Knoll
Mosswort Bridge

FUTility Lands
New Benalia
Tolaria West
Dakmor Salvage
Keldon Megaliths
Llanowar Reborn


Mono/Dual Cycles: Cycles that extend in both Mono-Colored and Dual-Color producing lands.



Non-Basic with Basic Sub-Types: Self Explanatory



Untapped (Conditional) Duals: Dual Land cycles that do not have subtypes and do or may enter the battlefield untapped.

Pain Land
Adarkar Wastes
Caves of Koilos
Underground River
Shivan Reef
Sulfurous Springs
Llanowar Wastes
Karplusan Forest
Battlefield Forge
Brushland
Yavimaya Coast

Filter Lands
Mystic Gate
Fetid Heath
Sunken Ruins
Cascade Bluffs
Graven Cairns
Twilight Mire
Fire-Lit Thicket
Rugged Prairie
Wooded Bastion
Flooded Grove

BBD Duals
Sea of Clouds
Morphic Pool
Luxury Suite
Spire Garden
Beautiful Promenade

Check Lands
Glacial Fortress
Isolated Chapel
Drowned Catacomb
Sulfur Falls
Dragonskull Summit
Woodland Cemetery
Rootbound Crag
Clifftop Retreat
Sunpetal Grove
Hinterland Harbor

Fast Lands
Seachrome Coast
Concealed Courtyard
Darkslick Shores
Spirebluff Canal
Blackcleave Cliffs
Blooming Marsh
Copperline Gorge
Inspiring Vantage
Razorverge Thicket
Botanical Sanctum

Show Land
Port Town
Choked Estuary
Foreboding Ruins
Game Trail
Fortified Village


Tap Duals: Dual color producing land cycles that ETB tapped

Elemental Manlands
Celestial Colonnade
Shambling Vent
Creeping Tar Pit
Wandering Fumarole
Lavaclaw Reaches
Hissing Quagmire
Raging Ravine
Needle Spires
Stirring Wildwood
Lumbering Falls

Temples
Temple of Enlightenment
Temple of Silence
Temple of Deceit
Temple of Epiphany
Temple of Malice
Temple of Malady
Temple of Abandon
Temple of Triumph
Temple of Plenty
Temple of Mystery

Gates
Azorius Guildgate
Orzhov Guildgate
Dimir Guildgate
Izzet Guildgate
Rakdos Guildgate
Golgari Guildgate
Gruul Guildgate
Boros Guildgate
Selesnya Guildgate
Simic Guildgate
Gateway Plaza

Tapped Pain Lands
Salt Flats
Caldera Lake
Pine Barrens
Scabland
Skyshroud Forest

Life Lands B
Tranquil Cove / Sejiri Refuge
Scoured Barrens
Dismal Backwater / Jwar Island Refuge
Swiftwater Cliffs
Bloodfell Caves / Akoum Refuge
Jungle Hollow
Rugged Highlands / Kazandu Refuge
Wind-Scarred Crag
Blossoming Sands / Graypelt Refuge
Thornwood Falls

Tap Duals
Meandering River / Coastal Tower
Forsaken Sanctuary
Submerged Boneyard / Salt Marsh
Highland Lake
Cinder Barrens / Urborg Volcano
Foul Orchard
Timber Gorge / Shivan Oasis
Stone Quarry
Tranquil Expanse / Elfhame Palace
Woodland Stream

Snow Tap Duals
Boreal Shelf
Frost Marsh
Tresserhorn Sinks
Highland Weald
Arctic Flats


Other "Duals" : Dual Lands cycles that did not fit in a category above



Three Color: Land cycles producing or searching three colors



Any Color: Lands that produce "any color"

Commander
Command Tower
Opal Palace
Path of Ancestry

Pain 5C
City of Brass
Grand Coliseum
Corrupted Crossroads
Spire of Industry

Restriction 5C
Ancient Ziggurat
Cavern of Souls
Forsaken City
Holdout Settlement
Meteor Crater
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Pillar of the Paruns
Rainbow Vale
Reflecting Pool
Survivors' Encampment
Unclaimed Territory

Counter
Aether Hub
Gemstone Mine
Mirrodin's Core
Tendo Ice Bridge

ETB Sac/Cost
Lotus Field
Lotus Vale
Rupture Spire
Transguild Promenade

Filter 5C
Cave of Temptation
Guildmages' Forum
Henge of Ramos
Painted Bluffs
Shimmering Grotto
Unknown Shores

Other
Glimmervoid
Thran Quarry
Exotic Orchard
Forbidden Orchard
Rhystic Cave

Mono Sac Fixing Lands
Archaeological Dig
Abandoned Outpost
Seafloor Debris
Bog Wreckage
Ravaged Highlands
Timberland Ruins

Vivid Lands
Vivid Meadow
Vivid Creek
Vivid Marsh
Vivid Crag
Vivid Grove


Other Lands: Other lands for consideration


_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Fix your Mana Bases!
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-10 11:43 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Using the above, these are some of my considerations:

How Many Colors?
- For me, Two Color decks never get Fetches or duals with a subtype (except when by-theme it is appropriate - e.g. GW Knights running Knight of the White Orchid and/or Knight of the Reliquary would get non-basics with a Plains subtype)
- Decks that are more balanced in color also don't get fetches and subtype duals, as mana fixing is easier and I can get away with some of the nicer other duals, like Temples, Check lands and Fast lands.
- Five color decks first look at "any color" options to allow more "duals" for the three color decks.
- Three color decks that don't have an equal spread of colors are where I tend to use fetches and Sub-type bearing non basics based on the primary color (e.g. Garza Vampires is heavily Black, so it runs the "Island Swamp" and "Swamp Mountain" duals and fetches, but leaves the "Island Mountain" fetches for my Elemental deck which is more heavily Red).

- Are there subthemes that will influence non-basic land choice?
- Landfall: add bounce lands
- Proliferate: add counter-using lands
- Life-gain: add Pain lands
- Tribal: Add creature type lands (either on-tribe, or "choose creature type")
- Etc.

- Basics
- For three color decks, I try to have at least as many basics for each color as I have duals for that color. Keeping with the Garza example - I have 3 UB duals, 4 BR duals; 3 Islands, 4 Mountains and 7 Swamps.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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