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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-19 7:01 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-26 5:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Non clique decks should run mishra's facotory and mutavault and maybe another manland as a way of providing their clock.

I don't see why clique is really broken if its intent is to win through the combat phase across 7 turns. and remember, its possible to never need to tap out in other builds as well. but it does require careful thought and planning. Teferi provides the same advantage while making your opponents counterspells and suspended cards useless. admittedly, he doesn't provide a clock if your opponent has nonflying blockers, but he can be a house in his own right.

And from what it sounds like, a clique that gets hindered is simply gone forever. if you manage to mindslaver them and during the turn you control them, kill or counter clique and leave it in their yard, they simply lose.

If you manage to get rid of clique's general it just plane loses is what you guys seem to have been telling me.

Yes, mono blue control is very powerful in legacy/vintage. and letting tolarian academy, moxen and time walk be legal may be an issue. i mean, its hard to beat ancestral recall and tolarian acedemy.

I see decks with only 1 win condition as weak. But instead of EDH, I recommend you just play 100 card vintage or go to 7 point australian highlander.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 6:12 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 7:53 pm
Age: Hatchling
VC decks are annoying


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 10:32 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
I run a Clique deck now and then, if I feel like being a real Jerk or a good prizr is on the line.

I've won a game or two after getting Clique tucked. is Awesome. That said, it shouldn't get tucked unless you're dumb. You have too much stack control. Teferi costs 5, they should not be able to win that counterwar, an no other deck has the counterspell density you do. Remember, there are really not that many cards you need to counter.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 11:19 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So- how about Thrun, the Last Troll? Magic bullet against the Clique?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-25 11:55 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
nah you're looking at evac / clique not general. Also you're stuck in mono green ..


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-25 8:19 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-29 4:24 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-29 4:21 am
Age: Egg
Just play mono red ashling-_-.......


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-31 10:23 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-07 10:24 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 9:42 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
The thing is, Clique has Flash and costs 3 - this is why Teferi won't beat you, and why you don;t ahve to tap out the play him.

Look, no deck is unbeatable. I'm sure if you made a focused hate deck you'd be able to beat Clique, but the fact is that it has a huge counterspell density, a built-in tuck effect combined with bounce that can really let you mess with opposing generals, and literally never has to tap out on its turn. Nutty draws from a Teferi player with lots of low CMC counterspells and a perfect land curve might do it.

The issue is that Clique is insanely consistant.

There are not that many things you actually have to counter when running Clique. Large ground pounders that can race it, sure, but by the time they have the mana for that (and remember, they need to play around stuff like Mana Leak) you might have hit them 3 or 4 times already, making a race a very tall order indeed.

And yes, I'm pretty sure no one else is running the counterspell density. Guys like Teferi and Eryao need support spells to enable their win condition. Eryao needs low CMC spells to flip the general. Teferi needs alt wincons or equipment to beef up the general so he can actually do something since he has no evasion, or his counterspells get spead thinner because he has to care about ground pounders in a way Clique does not.

Stuff like Ashling isn't just answered by Spin into Myth and Hinder, it's answered by bounce spells and then tucking with Clique.

As far as a specific list, one has been given. The actual choice of those counterspells, draw spells, and bounce spells might vary somewhat, but it's pretty obvious what stuff to include. Do you really need a list of the 33 odd best counterspells in the format, bounce spells, draw spealls, etc...?

One thing I will say is include Riptide Laboratory. It's ballin.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 1:04 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 2:06 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
I haven't played with are against this deck, but I think it's probably fine if Teferi counters your Turn 3 Clique. You then get to untap and resume your normal game plan. If they do nothing else and then counter it again on Turn 5, that's fine, too. You've still got seven cards and they have five. It gets interesting on Turn 7, when they can cast Teferi in response to Clique and still leave up UU (or counter Clique and still leave up 2UUU). But they have to either counter the Clique right there or have two 2-mana counters, because if Clique resolves you're going to tuck one.

If they cast Teferi and counter Clique, they are tapped out, and you can bounce (or possibly Fateseal) Teferi and leave up plenty of mana. It will be awhile before you can safely Clique again, but you aren't under pressure and you're still up 2-3 cards.

If they cast Teferi and don't counter Clique, you tuck their best card, start racing them with you ahead, and resume leaving up countermagic every turn.

If they counter Clique and try to flash Teferi on your next end step, they are tapped out, and you can just counter it (or even Hinder it for the blowout) and leave up plenty of mana.

If they let Clique resolve in order to cast Teferi with counter back up on your end step, you tuck their best card, and probably counter their counter on your end step. (In this scenario, you haven't actually used any cards before this point.) You might be exposed at this point, unless you had 3 counterspells that cost a total of 7-8 mana; no matter what they can probably force something through on their next turn. But on your (9th) turn, you can bounce it, hit them for 3, and resume leaving up countermagic every turn.

My guess is that Teferi has to have a much better hand than Clique to win, or a silver bullet like Thrun that Clique can't deal with.

Would be any good 1v1 against Clique? If Sygg plays first, they can cast Sygg under the counter wall, and if you bounce it right away, you can't counter it when they recast it. And if you don't bounce it right away, they can protect it from blue in response to every removal you attempt. By the time you can remove it twice, they can protect it twice. You could burn cards bouncing it from the beginning until you have enough mana to bounce and counter it, but then they'll have the mana to counter your counter. You could just race, but if they play first, they can counter your Turn 3 Clique and protect Sygg in the same turn. They just have to hit five more times than you to win the race.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 2:07 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Im always amazed that everyone forgets that Clique lets people draw a card after the tuc.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 8:35 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-04 2:03 pm
Age: Drake
On a whim, I put together a version of this deck, and lemme tell you, it beats almost everything you throw at it. It plays so many cheap counterspells, and even if they are drawing cards, your ENTIRE deck is answers. You almost never draw a dead card, and the curve is stupendous. Against MUC, you just play a little more conservatively. You just keep a counter up, drop clique, and the beatdown is on... Even if they counter clique, you still have counters, and unless they are a dedicated deck designed to beat you, they do not have the same density of cards.

That being said, I seriously believe that VC is overpowered, and that if you design it right for heads up, you will win so many games your friends won't want to play against it anymore...


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-10 1:35 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON

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