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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-19 7:01 pm 

Joined: 2010-Mar-26 5:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Non clique decks should run mishra's facotory and mutavault and maybe another manland as a way of providing their clock.

I don't see why clique is really broken if its intent is to win through the combat phase across 7 turns. and remember, its possible to never need to tap out in other builds as well. but it does require careful thought and planning. Teferi provides the same advantage while making your opponents counterspells and suspended cards useless. admittedly, he doesn't provide a clock if your opponent has nonflying blockers, but he can be a house in his own right.

And from what it sounds like, a clique that gets hindered is simply gone forever. if you manage to mindslaver them and during the turn you control them, kill or counter clique and leave it in their yard, they simply lose.

If you manage to get rid of clique's general it just plane loses is what you guys seem to have been telling me.

Yes, mono blue control is very powerful in legacy/vintage. and letting tolarian academy, moxen and time walk be legal may be an issue. i mean, its hard to beat ancestral recall and tolarian acedemy.

I see decks with only 1 win condition as weak. But instead of EDH, I recommend you just play 100 card vintage or go to 7 point australian highlander.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 6:12 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-03 7:53 pm
Age: Hatchling
VC decks are annoying


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-06 10:32 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
I run a Clique deck now and then, if I feel like being a real Jerk or a good prizr is on the line.

I've won a game or two after getting Clique tucked. Long-Term Plans is Awesome. That said, it shouldn't get tucked unless you're dumb. You have too much stack control. Teferi costs 5, they should not be able to win that counterwar, an no other deck has the counterspell density you do. Remember, there are really not that many cards you need to counter.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-20 11:19 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So- how about Thrun, the Last Troll? Magic bullet against the Clique?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-25 11:55 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
nah you're looking at evac / clique not general. Also you're stuck in mono green ..


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-25 8:19 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Greater Good?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-29 4:24 am 

Joined: 2011-Jan-29 4:21 am
Age: Egg
Just play mono red ashling-_-.......


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Jan-31 10:23 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
lich_fzd wrote:
Just play mono red ashling-_-.......



Yeah... no

Hinder + Spin into Myth say hi

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-07 10:24 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Killane wrote:
Teferi costs 5, they should not be able to win that counterwar, an no other deck has the counterspell density you do. Remember, there are really not that many cards you need to counter.


Are you sure no one is running the counterspell density you are? Really sure? Like, no one in the world is running more than you?

I've read this thread and I wonder. I have no doubt that VC is really, really good. 1v1 Metagames always degenerate into one of two scenarios, a rock-paper-scissors one, where a narrow and circular set of decks can beat each other, or a sole dominant deck environment, where the only way to beat the top dog is to duplicate it.

Is VC that one dominant one? I dunno, maybe. But, this thread contains a huge amount of assumptions, and offers nothing back. The answer to mono-red Ashling was Spin into Myth and/or Hinder, or bounce and Clique. Ashling comes out turn two. The first ashling is basically uncounterable and wont be hit by spin for a while (spin costing 5, also, one card in your deck which I guess you could Merch Scroll or Mystical tutor for. Whatever, not likely that you'll have it for every ashling game, and they might have Lightning Greaves/Whispersilk Cloak a third of the time when you do). If you bounce, you're going to have to clique before the Ashling player's main phase, perhaps letting some other hard-to-answer threat through.

...But, as you've expressed repeatedly (to the exclusion of all else) you've got counterspell density and answers for everything, and the other player is on a clock.

With the Teferi decks, there's talk like it's all equal but Teferi costs more, and there's nothing the Teferi deck can do because it can't win a counterwar with the mana disadvantage, and you've got bounce and other answers. But, what if they run Gauntlets of Power and/or Extraplanar Lens? They might as well tap out for it, it's not like you're going to play a threat on your turn. Or Venser decks? You play Clique at the end of my turn, but I'm playing Sapphire Medallion/Manakin/Sky Diamond/Millikin/Sol Ring/Mana Vault/etc., and I Venser your first stab at clique while you're tapped out, delaying you a turn? Hell, Venser is a lousy scenario (because he's a mediocre general anyway). What if it's just a counterspell (even if it's on my turn; you're still not 'ruining' my hand until the next Clique play two turns from now, or starting your clock, for a like amount of time).

...But, as you've expressed repeatedly (to the exclusion of all else) you've got counterspell density and answers for everything, and the other player is on a clock.

This thread is full of "No, you can't beat it; no, I wont give you a specific decklist; no, I just run more counterspells; no, more counterspells than that; no, more counterspells than you; no, more counterspells than ANYONE, etc. etc. etc."

It's really hard to take it seriously. There are simple questions from other MUC decks, like a counterspell on my turn when you first try to drop clique. You tap out, your Clique's cost is raised by 2. No clock yet. Try again turn 5? Now you're on the same playing field as the Teferi player. But the Teferi deck? He might have another win condition, and he might be able to get it running if he can draw a counterspell every other turn, or at least have some answer to the Clique when it finally arrives (and if he doesn't, it's a poor deck, I'm sure). At any rate, time is on the Teferi player's side because you're running nothing but counters and bounce, and Teferi renders half your deck useless (he'll counter your bounce, he'll deal with your clique with whatever he's got, your counterspells can't even be played).

I'm not denying that Clique is good or even great, or even unbeatable. But one could never know by reading this thread; it's way too vague in its reasoning ("no really, I have an answer for that, and I run more counterspells than anyone, hands down"), and offers nothing substantial other than a few card names and a general strategy.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 9:42 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
The thing is, Clique has Flash and costs 3 - this is why Teferi won't beat you, and why you don;t ahve to tap out the play him.

Look, no deck is unbeatable. I'm sure if you made a focused hate deck you'd be able to beat Clique, but the fact is that it has a huge counterspell density, a built-in tuck effect combined with bounce that can really let you mess with opposing generals, and literally never has to tap out on its turn. Nutty draws from a Teferi player with lots of low CMC counterspells and a perfect land curve might do it.

The issue is that Clique is insanely consistant.

There are not that many things you actually have to counter when running Clique. Large ground pounders that can race it, sure, but by the time they have the mana for that (and remember, they need to play around stuff like Mana Leak) you might have hit them 3 or 4 times already, making a race a very tall order indeed.

And yes, I'm pretty sure no one else is running the counterspell density. Guys like Teferi and Eryao need support spells to enable their win condition. Eryao needs low CMC spells to flip the general. Teferi needs alt wincons or equipment to beef up the general so he can actually do something since he has no evasion, or his counterspells get spead thinner because he has to care about ground pounders in a way Clique does not.

Stuff like Ashling isn't just answered by Spin into Myth and Hinder, it's answered by bounce spells and then tucking with Clique.

As far as a specific list, one has been given. The actual choice of those counterspells, draw spells, and bounce spells might vary somewhat, but it's pretty obvious what stuff to include. Do you really need a list of the 33 odd best counterspells in the format, bounce spells, draw spealls, etc...?

One thing I will say is include Riptide Laboratory. It's ballin.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 1:04 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Killane wrote:
The thing is, Clique has Flash and costs 3 - this is why Teferi won't beat you, and why you don;t ahve to tap out the play him.

...

And yes, I'm pretty sure no one else is running the counterspell density.

Stuff like Ashling isn't just answered by Spin into Myth and Hinder, it's answered by bounce spells and then tucking with Clique.

As far as a specific list, one has been given. The actual choice of those counterspells, draw spells, and bounce spells might vary somewhat, but it's pretty obvious what stuff to include. Do you really need a list of the 33 odd best counterspells in the format, bounce spells, draw spealls, etc...?

One thing I will say is include Riptide Laboratory. It's ballin.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. You repeat the same thing, over and over. It doesn't explain anything. You did not answer my question about what happens when the other MUC deck counters your end of opponent's turn 3 clique. You just repeat the same stuff, over and over, saying that bounce/clique/counter can solve any problem without ever addressing what happens when your deck fails to establish a clock BECAUSE THE OTHER GUY IS ALSO HOLDING COUNTERSPELLS AND NOT PLAYING CARDS ON HIS TURN BECAUSE HE'S ON TO YOUR GAME.

So, I ask again, what do you do when another blue player sees your Clique, and just doesn't play permanents until he's ready to pulverize you?

Do you still, at the end of your opponent's turn when you have 3 land, throw clique into a counter? You burn one of their counters, but they buy time against you. Your deck gets worse over time (and, really, early Clique us supposed to fix that, which it will against another MUC player who taps out on the main phase on turn 3). The other deck probably gets better over time.

What if another MUC deck just plays land after land, waiting to counterwar your clique with a mana advantage and simultaneously biding their time for a threat that bounce/clique/counter can't deal with? Your one win condition makes you vulnerable.

How do you respond to another MUC deck that simply doesn't tap out, and plays the same game you do, until their deck is overwhelmingly better, because you're only running counter/clique/bounce?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 2:06 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
I haven't played with are against this deck, but I think it's probably fine if Teferi counters your Turn 3 Clique. You then get to untap and resume your normal game plan. If they do nothing else and then counter it again on Turn 5, that's fine, too. You've still got seven cards and they have five. It gets interesting on Turn 7, when they can cast Teferi in response to Clique and still leave up UU (or counter Clique and still leave up 2UUU). But they have to either counter the Clique right there or have two 2-mana counters, because if Clique resolves you're going to tuck one.

If they cast Teferi and counter Clique, they are tapped out, and you can bounce (or possibly Fateseal) Teferi and leave up plenty of mana. It will be awhile before you can safely Clique again, but you aren't under pressure and you're still up 2-3 cards.

If they cast Teferi and don't counter Clique, you tuck their best card, start racing them with you ahead, and resume leaving up countermagic every turn.

If they counter Clique and try to flash Teferi on your next end step, they are tapped out, and you can just counter it (or even Hinder it for the blowout) and leave up plenty of mana.

If they let Clique resolve in order to cast Teferi with counter back up on your end step, you tuck their best card, and probably counter their counter on your end step. (In this scenario, you haven't actually used any cards before this point.) You might be exposed at this point, unless you had 3 counterspells that cost a total of 7-8 mana; no matter what they can probably force something through on their next turn. But on your (9th) turn, you can bounce it, hit them for 3, and resume leaving up countermagic every turn.

My guess is that Teferi has to have a much better hand than Clique to win, or a silver bullet like Thrun that Clique can't deal with.

Would Sygg, River Guide be any good 1v1 against Clique? If Sygg plays first, they can cast Sygg under the counter wall, and if you bounce it right away, you can't counter it when they recast it. And if you don't bounce it right away, they can protect it from blue in response to every removal you attempt. By the time you can remove it twice, they can protect it twice. You could burn cards bouncing it from the beginning until you have enough mana to bounce and counter it, but then they'll have the mana to counter your counter. You could just race, but if they play first, they can counter your Turn 3 Clique and protect Sygg in the same turn. They just have to hit five more times than you to win the race.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 2:07 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Im always amazed that everyone forgets that Clique lets people draw a card after the tuc.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-08 8:35 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-04 2:03 pm
Age: Drake
On a whim, I put together a version of this deck, and lemme tell you, it beats almost everything you throw at it. It plays so many cheap counterspells, and even if they are drawing cards, your ENTIRE deck is answers. You almost never draw a dead card, and the curve is stupendous. Against MUC, you just play a little more conservatively. You just keep a counter up, drop clique, and the beatdown is on... Even if they counter clique, you still have counters, and unless they are a dedicated deck designed to beat you, they do not have the same density of cards.

That being said, I seriously believe that VC is overpowered, and that if you design it right for heads up, you will win so many games your friends won't want to play against it anymore...


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-10 1:35 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Sinis wrote:
Killane wrote:
The thing is, Clique has Flash and costs 3 - this is why Teferi won't beat you, and why you don;t ahve to tap out the play him.

...

And yes, I'm pretty sure no one else is running the counterspell density.

Stuff like Ashling isn't just answered by Spin into Myth and Hinder, it's answered by bounce spells and then tucking with Clique.

As far as a specific list, one has been given. The actual choice of those counterspells, draw spells, and bounce spells might vary somewhat, but it's pretty obvious what stuff to include. Do you really need a list of the 33 odd best counterspells in the format, bounce spells, draw spealls, etc...?

One thing I will say is include Riptide Laboratory. It's ballin.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. You repeat the same thing, over and over. It doesn't explain anything. You did not answer my question about what happens when the other MUC deck counters your end of opponent's turn 3 clique. You just repeat the same stuff, over and over, saying that bounce/clique/counter can solve any problem without ever addressing what happens when your deck fails to establish a clock BECAUSE THE OTHER GUY IS ALSO HOLDING COUNTERSPELLS AND NOT PLAYING CARDS ON HIS TURN BECAUSE HE'S ON TO YOUR GAME.

So, I ask again, what do you do when another blue player sees your Clique, and just doesn't play permanents until he's ready to pulverize you?

Do you still, at the end of your opponent's turn when you have 3 land, throw clique into a counter? You burn one of their counters, but they buy time against you. Your deck gets worse over time (and, really, early Clique us supposed to fix that, which it will against another MUC player who taps out on the main phase on turn 3). The other deck probably gets better over time.

What if another MUC deck just plays land after land, waiting to counterwar your clique with a mana advantage and simultaneously biding their time for a threat that bounce/clique/counter can't deal with? Your one win condition makes you vulnerable.

How do you respond to another MUC deck that simply doesn't tap out, and plays the same game you do, until their deck is overwhelmingly better, because you're only running counter/clique/bounce?


You don't try to cast clique at the end of T3 into 3 untapped islands. Why would you? If they haven't tried to cast anything yet, just wait till you can back it up. You're assuming that the Clique player mindless tries to cast Clique at the end of T3 every game. You don't need to.

How does their deck get overwhelmingly better than your if they're not advancing board position? IF they try, that's when you start to counter things, or when they tap out for somethign you don't care about, you Clique. Otherwise you can sit there with a full grip for ages until they blink.

Remember there are only so many threats you have to care about when you have a flying general damage clock. Most of them cost more than most counterspells. If your arguement is that they'll just build up a hand of things you can't deal with and then go off all in one turn so you can't counter everything, just keep in mind that it only costs 2 mana to cast Counterspell on a 3, 4, 5, 6 whatever mana guy.

At the end of the day, if you're really that skeptical, test it. That's all I can say. Test the matchup between Cluque and Teferi, and then Clique and Eryao, and Clique and whatever other U based general you care to come up with. It's very hard to explain the dynamic of these games. You ahve to know when not to blink, you have to carefully judge what needs to be countered and what doesn't, and you have to time Clique correctly.

Joz wrote:
Im always amazed that everyone forgets that Clique lets people draw a card after the tuc.


Huh? Who's forgetting this? No one is saying that Clique's effect is CA, but it is VCA in a sense in that you get to tuck things that are problems or that are crucial to a general-focused deck. When you have a flying general and a ton of counterspells, chances are that your opponent's deck will have many cards in it that you don't have to care about. Clique helps replace the ones you do ahve to care about with ones that you do not.

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