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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-04 10:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Joz wrote:
If Teferi goes first; it beats Clique (as long as Clique doesn't have a Thwart, FOW or Daze in hand.)



How? Yes if it can get the general into play it wins, but it won't win the counterwar over Teferi becuase Teferi costs 5 mana, leaving them 5 mana down in the fight. Even if played in repsonse to Clique and after both sides make all their land drops Teferi is still 1 mana down in the counterwar. (assuming evenly match hands. Yes if Teferi is holding Mana Drain, FoW, Thwart/Foil and Force Spike and Clique is holding Cryptic Command, Spelljack, Time Stop and Overwhelming Intellect Teferi is going to win that fight, but Vice Versa is also true).

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-05 1:18 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-28 2:32 pm
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Though this does lead to an interesting train of thought: if Teferi resolves, does the Clique just flat-out lose? If so, would it be optimal for Teferi to narrow it's focus to winning the initial counter war, thus enabling a more optimized selection of spells to protect it's key play? Cards like Dispel and Gainsay are rediculously narrow under normal circumstances, but will win counter wars. Cards with significant drawbacks, like Arcane Denial, are usually unplayable because of the drawback, but would be very good in this case- giving away 1 card (essentially) is totally worth it to lock the Clique into sorcery speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-05 5:46 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
gaijinguy wrote:
Though this does lead to an interesting train of thought: if Teferi resolves, does the Clique just flat-out lose? If so, would it be optimal for Teferi to narrow it's focus to winning the initial counter war, thus enabling a more optimized selection of spells to protect it's key play? Cards like Dispel and Gainsay are rediculously narrow under normal circumstances, but will win counter wars. Cards with significant drawbacks, like Arcane Denial, are usually unplayable because of the drawback, but would be very good in this case- giving away 1 card (essentially) is totally worth it to lock the Clique into sorcery speed.

1. If Teferi resolves at the end of the Clique player's turn, it seems like it might be a winner (Clique's counterspell density works against it at that point; they're all dead cards).
2. There's some stuff that's not so narrow that really helps in the blue matchup, like Mindbreak Trap*. The real problem is that you can devote your deck to winning a counterwar, and then encounter the problem that once Teferi hits the table, you're running a bunch of dead cards because there are no counterspells to counter.

*I'm a fan of Mindbreak Trap. It exiles, so it can stop Boseiju'ed stuff, or Emrakul if he were legal, or whatever. It could play for free, which is always tight. It wrecks storm. It just seems tight, but I never see it in anyone's lists but my own.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-06 9:47 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Sinis wrote:
gaijinguy wrote:
Though this does lead to an interesting train of thought: if Teferi resolves, does the Clique just flat-out lose? If so, would it be optimal for Teferi to narrow it's focus to winning the initial counter war, thus enabling a more optimized selection of spells to protect it's key play? Cards like Dispel and Gainsay are rediculously narrow under normal circumstances, but will win counter wars. Cards with significant drawbacks, like Arcane Denial, are usually unplayable because of the drawback, but would be very good in this case- giving away 1 card (essentially) is totally worth it to lock the Clique into sorcery speed.

1. If Teferi resolves at the end of the Clique player's turn, it seems like it might be a winner (Clique's counterspell density works against it at that point; they're all dead cards).
2. There's some stuff that's not so narrow that really helps in the blue matchup, like Mindbreak Trap*. The real problem is that you can devote your deck to winning a counterwar, and then encounter the problem that once Teferi hits the table, you're running a bunch of dead cards because there are no counterspells to counter.

*I'm a fan of Mindbreak Trap. It exiles, so it can stop Boseiju'ed stuff, or Emrakul if he were legal, or whatever. It could play for free, which is always tight. It wrecks storm. It just seems tight, but I never see it in anyone's lists but my own.


Yes, if Teferi resolves Clique should just loose, most of the time. Mindbreak trap is great. I still don't get how you consistantly win the counterwar to get Teferi into play. Clique (played correctly) doesn't tap out main phase. You still end up down 5 mana in the counterwar even if you end step him. Even Teferi in repsonse to Clique leaves you down 5 mana, and if you still get him into play and Clique swings first it wins the race if it can stop just one attack from Teferi (Maze of Ith, Mystifying Maze Mishra's Factory to chump, etc....), plus Teferi is not as good vs the rest of the field becuase it doesn't have evasion so you have to counter/answer all sorts of things that Clique doesn't have to care about.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-07 6:03 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
I'm just curious why these mono-U generals seem to still be an issue with Thrun now knocking about. He flat out beats them.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-07 8:31 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
zimagic wrote:
I'm just curious why these mono-U generals seem to still be an issue with Thrun now knocking about. He flat out beats them.


Ok,

1. No, he doesn't. He only races Clique on the play, not the draw, there are 3 counterspells that counter him, several bounce spells that bounce him allowing him to be tucked, and CLique does run every strip effect known to man whcih might stright up keep them off him for a bit. he's the best possible general vs Clique, but not unbeatable by a long shot.

2. He's way worse vs. the rest of the Teir 1 field. He flat out looses to Zur, I can't see him taking a game there, ditto vs Sharrum and I dont; see hwo he beats Uril either.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-07 8:59 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Killane wrote:
zimagic wrote:
I'm just curious why these mono-U generals seem to still be an issue with Thrun now knocking about. He flat out beats them.


Ok,

1. No, he doesn't. He only races Clique on the play, not the draw, there are 3 counterspells that counter him, several bounce spells that bounce him allowing him to be tucked, and CLique does run every strip effect known to man whcih might stright up keep them off him for a bit. he's the best possible general vs Clique, but not unbeatable by a long shot.

2. He's way worse vs. the rest of the Teir 1 field. He flat out looses to Zur, I can't see him taking a game there, ditto vs Sharrum and I dont; see hwo he beats Uril either.


1. You're in the colour that recycles lands/card the best in EDH, Green should never lose a straight up attrition war. It's also the colour that accellerates land better than any other colour. Green has the most tutors for Thrun in the case he is tucked. It's also one of the two best anti-U colours. If you want to beat blue based decks, you can.

2. Enchantments & artifacts.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-07 9:35 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Vexing Shusher
seems like a good anti-blue card to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-07 9:49 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Joz wrote:
Vexing Shusher
seems like a good anti-blue card to me.


Hybrid :wink:

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Scarab God Zombie Horde
Atraxa Superfriends
Yidris Eldrazi (4C Devoid)
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Gonti's Mega-Bouncy Castle


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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-07 11:13 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
zimagic wrote:
Killane wrote:
zimagic wrote:
I'm just curious why these mono-U generals seem to still be an issue with Thrun now knocking about. He flat out beats them.


Ok,

1. No, he doesn't. He only races Clique on the play, not the draw, there are 3 counterspells that counter him, several bounce spells that bounce him allowing him to be tucked, and CLique does run every strip effect known to man whcih might stright up keep them off him for a bit. he's the best possible general vs Clique, but not unbeatable by a long shot.

2. He's way worse vs. the rest of the Teir 1 field. He flat out looses to Zur, I can't see him taking a game there, ditto vs Sharrum and I dont; see hwo he beats Uril either.


1. You're in the colour that recycles lands/card the best in EDH, Green should never lose a straight up attrition war. It's also the colour that accellerates land better than any other colour. Green has the most tutors for Thrun in the case he is tucked. It's also one of the two best anti-U colours. If you want to beat blue based decks, you can.

2. Enchantments & artifacts.


1. I'm not saying it's a good match up for Clique it's the worst one there is, I'm just saying I don;t think Clique is the 90/10 dog you seem to be saying it is vs Thrun.

2. Sorry, even with Enchant and Arti I don't see Thrun racing Zur or Sharrum.

Anyway the point I'm makign is that, while you mau be correct that you can make a Thrun list that will best Clique say 70% of the time or more, it won;t be nearly as good vs the rest of the field as Clique is. Thrun might have that matchup vs Clique, but in my experience the Clique deck has about a 75/25 or better match vs most of the top Tier generals, and close to a 99/1 matchup vs Randoms. It's better vs the entire rest fo the field than Thrun is vs its best matchup.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-07 12:29 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
If Thrun is indeed favored against Clique, the format should become pretty normal, even if Thrun can't beat anything else (which is unlikely). You could play play Clique and lose to Thrun, or you could play Thrun and lose to everything else, or you could play something else and beat Thrun. No one deck remains a sure bet.

I've been playing Thrun in multiplayer, and I think I could be competitive against Sharuum and Zur if I tuned for 1v1. In multiplayer, killing the first guy is relatively easy, even with third parties interfering.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-08 2:48 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Killane wrote:
2. Sorry, even with Enchant and Arti I don't see Thrun racing Zur or Sharrum.


Apologies, I was in a hurry to finish. My point was much like the first, you're playing mono-g which shouldn't have any issues dealing with either artifacts or enchantments.

Looking at the deck as Hater-ator Green rather than anything else, you have ways to destroy most permanents (you're soft to creatures though you have outs) and you have access to any land and LD suite you could possibly need. You can also hate on your opponents acting during your turn and you can hate on blue quite easily. You also have the opportunity to hate on multicoloured or colour diverse decks. Instead of building a deck to be a good green deck, Thrun finally allows you to skip the whole green support side of 1v1 deckbuilding and skip straight to being a bit of a pain for your opponent.

Do you want to work on a decklist?

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-May-29 3:23 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-11 12:13 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Emerald's Away
I'm not going to make a cliche clique post now. I'm not afraid of it. I know I've posted too much today but I haven't posted here in months.

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-May-29 3:26 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
ban islands, done

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 Post subject: Re: Why Vendilion Clique has got to go.
AgePosted: 2011-May-30 12:53 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-11 12:13 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Emerald's Away
You mean ban all sources that produce blue mana. Who would have thought blue would benefit most from this format overall.

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