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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-25 4:52 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Right now, I'm finding it quite amusing to find different disruptive spells.

Dawn Charm - OMG! This stops Gifts Ungiven. And Bribery. And Mind Twist. Lots of cards, but I'm much too lazy to find spells that say "target player/opponent."

Imp's Mischief - You can "counter" a counterspell with this by changing the target of the counterspell to Imp's Mischief itself. Or change the target of your opponent's Opportunity. Lots of fun.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-25 7:24 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
iceage4life wrote:
warble wrote:
Edit: If you can find an instance where sol ring really ruins the game...let me know. I'd be very interested.


In a duel one person plays turn one Sol Ring, the other does not. GG


Pretty much how it goes. I'm absolutely of the opinion that Sol Ring shouldn't be legal in EDH for 2 players. And I did at some point in the past even try suggesting it should be banned in multiplayer too.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-25 9:55 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
That's not true...

You forgot Ancient Tomb. Crystal Vein? Mishra's Workshop?

Your opening hand doesn't always consist of the Sol Ring. You're going to have to make a decision whether you want to mulligan or not to get a Sol Ring? I don't think so. The game is luck-based as well, remember that. If they get a Sol Ring, they get it. Just let it be. It's not exactly the game-defining spell. If games are decided by the presence of a first turn Sol Ring, your play group must be terrible.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-25 10:33 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
i beg to differ

in a game where tempo is very important (and you stress so yourself, since your deck is all about tempo and disrupting other ppl's tempo), being able to easily pull yourself two turns ahead is a massive advantage. While it's true that the other player may be able to get back into the game, the advantage the sol ring player already has is big.

Also, the cards you named are all lands, sol ring is not.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-25 11:09 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
cmb_master wrote:
It's not exactly the game-defining spell.

what

cmb_master wrote:
If games are not decided by the presence of a first turn Sol Ring, your play group must be terrible.

Fixed. This is the Duels board, remember.

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 12:16 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Check over your math first. You only set that argument under the condition that you use up every single mana effectively each turn. Without the spells later on the back it up, your Sol Ring is like a rocket engine you use for a 100m track.

It's more like, Sol Ring, with the fuel to burn off which makes it good. I mean, Sol Ring on it's own doesn't win games. No, Sol Ring into 2nd turn Phyrexian Processor into 30/30's wins games. At which point, we need to take into consideration what turn Sol Ring becomes relevent. Turn 1 Sol Ring enables a spell of 4 cmc by turn 2. However, as I said before, your opening hand SHOULD consistent of 3 lands or more. Your general is a freebie spell, so keeping more lands is optimal. But having 3+ land in your opener and with a Sol Ring leads you to have only 3 or less non-mana cards left. At which point, you need to consider: which card here can I fully abuses Sol Ring? The chances of you actually having the 4 cmc spell is actually not that high. This is because you built your deck knowing that usually on turn 2, you are usually casting an accelerant such as a signet, etc. You have the Sol Ring, but you cannot possibly guarantee that your Sol Ring will show up. Therefore, your deck will have a mana-curved ratio of spells such that your 4 cmc's appear not that frequently. So, in reality, your Sol Ring makes its largest impact on turn 3 (under the assumption your Sol Ring was casted on turn 1). Subsequent turns after that makes your Sol Ring considerably weaker. The Sol Ring does not add coloured mana, so even fixing is out of the question. The turn at which Sol Ring becomes moot is around turn 5; at which point, you should have casted at least 1 signet/diamond/talisman, Solemn Simulacrum, Journeyer's Kite, Wayfarer's Bauble, or any kind of green land searching spell. If not, your Sol Ring is further useless as you have already lost.

I'm not saying that the card is 'fair'. Hell no. I'm saying it's not completely broken that it's considered ban-worthy. What I meant by my statement is that, if you're any good of a player, you should be able to survive, DESPITE the tempo advantage that Sol Ring would give. I've beaten turn 1 Sol Ring starts without using Sol Ring, and a lot of the time, yes, the turn 1 Sol Ring looks impressive, but it doesn't do anything for two turns, at which point, I care a whole lot less.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 12:21 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Doraemon wrote:
I would like to chime in and say that counterspell should not be listed as a solution to any of the cards that are on anyone's ban list. Not only does this earn a "duh" from everyone, but it stifles creativity of finding solutions to cards that are deemed overpowered.


What's wrong with naming counterspells? It depends on what KIND of counterspells. I swear, Negate gets no respect where I play...


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 2:41 am 
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Joined: 2007-Aug-25 2:26 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Rennes, Fr
10 of my 13 edh contain sol ring, although I was one of the first opposed to this card when duels developped in France.

Turn 1 sol ring turns often in victory, but this is not totaly true. For instance, in my Garza deck, she will arrive 2 turns earlier in play. That's manageable.

2 colors decks have a greatest benefit of sol ring:
- T1: island, sol ring
- T2: your general, Augustin. Game over.

Monocolored decks are insane with T1 sol ring.
- T2 Lu-xun doesn't end the game, but certainly leads to victory.
- T2 Braids is Good Game... wait a minute! You've won but where is the fun??? Is that the principle of EDH? Winning?

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 2:46 am 
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Joined: 2007-Aug-25 2:26 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Rennes, Fr
T1 Strip mine is "débile" too. Too easy to destroy any land (even the basics I mean).

I don't even speak of the loam/mine combo on turn 2 ... (and I love loam 'cause it's a great CA engine in nonblue decks).

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 3:49 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Token wrote:
Good Game... wait a minute! You've won but where is the fun??? Is that the principle of EDH? Winning?


No, the principle is to win WITH STYLE


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 6:13 am 

Joined: 2008-May-19 3:18 am
Age: Hatchling
I believe Time stretch should be banned. Every time it resolves its auto win.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 7:19 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Boyas wrote:
I believe Time [insert end of cardname here] should be banned. Every time it resolves its auto win.


No, it's just playtime like if yawgmoth's will resolves. I mean...cmon people kismet stasis lock need I remind you of these devestating combos? What I did include is dust bowl because it's a broken lock. I'm far more inclined to ban Life from the Loam than Time anything because if you couldn't play with Time you couldn't call this vintage could you?

I think one of the core assumptions we have to make on these forums is that accelerants like moxen and black lotus that are not named mox or black lotus should not be banned. That's the game speed we play in this format. That's what we do. Now, how we win, that's going to be a different thing. We don't tog upheaval and we don't flash hulk when we get accelerated. Instead we play big beautiful spells that have plenty of answers and fight tooth and nail until we win or lose. By playing the best accelerants in the format we should be able to get pretty damn fast at the expense of typically losing to fast disruption like LD/AD/HD/DD. That's our right and while I don't agree that every deck needs to be 5 colors and pack all of the best tutors and infinites you cannot stop people from making suicide combolicious decks. What you can do is limit those peoples' options in making those decks to win conditions that suck so much ass that they always lose. I'll take skullclamp for example...highlander itself makes skullclamp less efficient and to top that off the format itself HATES artifacts like there's no tomorrow. So when someone goes "oh lookie my broken acceleration is an artifact" you can basically always go "oh yeah that's why I play 15 two-for-one artifact destruction cards" The same way someone plays a tolarian and you strip/destroy it before they get two turns because you knew it was coming. That's what we have to assume, is that you saw this coming and either packed a disruption suite that was adequate or packed the card in your own deck. And yes, duels are sometimes decided by luck like getting sol ring and multiple other good cards in your opening hand. All sol ring is is the best two for one artifact mana ever. It's also the best mana source in the game. To me, it defines the format and it's speed. I don't consider it any more broken than that.

Edit: fixed that I put kudzu instead of kismet...I meant to say kismet


Last edited by warble on 2008-Jun-26 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-26 8:34 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
warble wrote:
Boyas wrote:
I believe Time [insert end of cardname here] should be banned. Every time it resolves its auto win.


No, it's just playtime like if yawgmoth's will resolves. I mean...cmon people kudzu stasis lock need I remind you of these devestating combos? What I did include is dust bowl because it's a broken lock. I'm far more inclined to ban Life from the Loam than Time anything because if you couldn't play with Time you couldn't call this vintage could you?

I think one of the core assumptions we have to make on these forums is that accelerants like moxen and black lotus that are not named mox or black lotus should not be banned. That's the game speed we play in this format. That's what we do. Now, how we win, that's going to be a different thing. We don't tog upheaval and we don't flash hulk when we get accelerated. Instead we play big beautiful spells that have plenty of answers and fight tooth and nail until we win or lose. By playing the best accelerants in the format we should be able to get pretty damn fast at the expense of typically losing to fast disruption like LD/AD/HD/DD. That's our right and while I don't agree that every deck needs to be 5 colors and pack all of the best tutors and infinites you cannot stop people from making suicide combolicious decks. What you can do is limit those peoples' options in making those decks to win conditions that suck so much ass that they always lose. I'll take skullclamp for example...highlander itself makes skullclamp less efficient and to top that off the format itself HATES artifacts like there's no tomorrow. So when someone goes "oh lookie my broken acceleration is an artifact" you can basically always go "oh yeah that's why I play 15 two-for-one artifact destruction cards" The same way someone plays a tolarian and you strip/destroy it before they get two turns because you knew it was coming. That's what we have to assume, is that you saw this coming and either packed a disruption suite that was adequate or packed the card in your own deck. And yes, duels are sometimes decided by luck like getting sol ring and multiple other good cards in your opening hand. All sol ring is is the best two for one artifact mana ever. It's also the best mana source in the game. To me, it defines the format and it's speed. I don't consider it any more broken than that.


Thank you. This has been the reply that made the most sense so far.

This thread went down the drain because of the sheer amount of people complaining about card X and such. Rather than find solutions, they'd rather just bitch about it and try to get said card onto a ban list.

People tend to bitch about anything. OOH, Life from the Loam. Run graveyard hate. OOH! Everyone's playing 5-color decks! Play Back to Basics. I can go on and on and on and on (ADD), but that's not the point. Banning cards is a last resort, and before you actually name anything, you should try and fight these cards first. I wonder how many of you actually try and pack disruptive spells for these cards/strategies?


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 5:54 am 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cmb_master wrote:
Doraemon wrote:
I would like to chime in and say that counterspell should not be listed as a solution to any of the cards that are on anyone's ban list. Not only does this earn a "duh" from everyone, but it stifles creativity of finding solutions to cards that are deemed overpowered.


What's wrong with naming counterspells? It depends on what KIND of counterspells. I swear, Negate gets no respect where I play...


It is because counterspells is "the solution to everything". It's pretty obvious (therefore earning a duh) and if by now you still don't believe me then take a look at the results of provincials/states champs where a large portion of the top 8 decks are counterspells or run a good chunk of them. Reason is simple and obvious: because it's hard to anticipate the new metagame, just run 20 counterspells so you can deal with everything. You are the one stressing about "being creative" and doing things "with style" so I thought you'd be a bit more thoughtful when coming up to solutions.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 7:55 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
EDH dual at FNM a couple days ago. My Hanna deck (me) vs my Intet deck (my friend).

I tell him I have a one land hand, he offers a mutual mulligan to seven. I tell him to goto seven but I'm good with one land.

Turn one: land, Sol Ring, Journeyer's Kite
Turn two: draw and play a land, signet, use kite
Turn three: land, Confiscate on one of his lands
Turn four: finish emptying my hand

Yeah Sol Ring clearly had little to no impact on that game :roll:

Comparing Sol Ring to Crystal Vein makes pretty much all your arguments seem invalid. Part of your argument seems to be based on the fact that some Sol Ring hands go nowhere, how often does this really happen, 1/15 games?

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