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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 7:58 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
Boyas wrote:
I believe Time stretch should be banned. Every time it resolves its auto win.


"Every time" is false. I'd say 90% of the time. That is in most decks. In decks built to win with it its more like 95% of the time because the plan is to cast it 2-4 times in a row. But I guess that is all based on mutiplayer, seems good in duels too :D

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 11:44 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-28 3:42 pm
Age: Dragon
I've never seen anyone win off a resolved Time Stretch, even recurring it a couple times.

Granted, I've only see Time Stretch resolve 3 times in multiplayer. My Draining Whelk usually eats it.

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 3:25 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
iceage4life wrote:
Turn one: land, Sol Ring
Turn three: land, Confiscate on one of his lands


I played a few games where I stole a Sol Ring. How much did my opponent hate his life then? How about when I stole their tolarian academy? Stealing awesome things is what you're supposed to do. Destroying them is just wasting a valuable resource! Copy the sol ring, steal the sol ring, what kind of crappy early game would we have if we weren't toying around with the mighty sol ring?


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 4:03 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
Scout wrote:
I've never seen anyone win off a resolved Time Stretch, even recurring it a couple times.

Granted, I've only see Time Stretch resolve 3 times in multiplayer. My Draining Whelk usually eats it.


Heh my blue decks probably resolve it on average 1.5 times a game :D

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 4:13 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I pack in Strip Mine, Wasteland, Engineered Explosives, Viridian Shaman, and Ancient Grudge to destroy that kind of stuff. I have an entire slew of spells dedicated to screw you over in mana.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-29 8:29 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
cmb_master wrote:
I pack in Strip Mine, Wasteland, Engineered Explosives, Viridian Shaman, and Ancient Grudge to destroy that kind of stuff. I have an entire slew of spells dedicated to screw you over in mana.



Wow two LD lands and some artifact destruction. I sure wouldn't want to have to face your deck!

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-30 10:30 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Added a new category of cards, those under consideration, to the list. I also started it off by adding three cards to this list. As I have no feedback on removing any listed cards from the list I'm leaving the current list as-is with marked ! indicating cards I feel are inappropriate but in the interest of unity have left on the list.

Cards currently under consideration:

Sol Ring

Sol Ring is not banned for the simple reason that it is attainable and one of the cornerstones of the vintage format. There are plenty of arguments that it is powerful, but because none of these arguments have a context (why don't you consider mana vault, mana crypt, tolarian academy, gaea's cradle, tinker, yawgmoth's will) and can uniquely identify why sol ring is bannable while the others aren't, I keep it grouped in the amazing accelerants group for now. I think the format would experience a serious backlash if we decided to ban Sol Ring also, so that also should be considered.

Braids

I included Braids to see if this is actually a consensus ban. As I hear some playgroups eschew use of Braids while others feel it's the embodiment of a black strategy. Personally I feel the latter but don't have enough play experience to definitively state that she doesn't ruin games.

Mindslaver

Obviously just under consideration for 1v1 play, but in that context it may be a game-breaking spell that you have access to waaaaaay early. Is this the case, or does everyone solve artifacts and graveyard recursion effectively enough to shut down this strategy? Personally I think if you're not running mindslaver you HAVE to run null rod in your deck. I have a very high opinion of mindslaver and am not opposed to it's banning based on the disproportionate power level in a duel. Also in my playgroup they respectfully request that any dueling deck does not play mindslaver. Is this a consensus?


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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-30 10:54 am 
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Joined: 2007-Aug-25 2:26 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Rennes, Fr
warble wrote:
I think the format would experience a serious backlash if we decided to ban Sol Ring
Not impossible.
At all.

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-30 11:02 am 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
warble wrote:
I think the format would experience a serious backlash if we decided to ban Sol Ring also, so that also should be considered.


You relize this is your personal ban list right? I really doubt there would be outrage if you banned it for you 1v1 house rules.

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AgePosted: 2008-Jun-30 11:18 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
iceage4life wrote:
warble wrote:
I think the format would experience a serious backlash if we decided to ban Sol Ring also, so that also should be considered.


You realize this is your personal ban list right? I really doubt there would be outrage if you banned it for you 1v1 house rules.


One of the purposes of independent banlists is to contribute to the overall banlist and offer a prototyping sort of mode for the real banlist. While it is true that a 1v1 banlist will differ, as we have seen from the other listed 1v1 banlist, my goal here is to make something "liveable" with minor differences that will allow people to play 1v1 with maybe one or two cards removed because they violate what we're trying to accomplish in EDH. In that sense, this really isn't even an independent banlist. What it does have is a few additions that make sense in a 1v1 combo-tastic environment. One core fundamental goal, and why I consider the backlash, is that I will be using these rules for regular EDH play. This is because I don't differentiate between 1v1 and group play in terms of MY deck construction, I'm hoping the multiplayer deck I have can "work in single player without any changes" In fact, the goal of ensuring interaction and decent gameplay in 1v1 does spill over into multiplayer because the most "broken" 1v1 strategies translate into little interaction and gameplay in a multiplayer environment, and because combo 1v1 decks prefer to win via WIN CONDITION rather than by overwhelming force attacking the best 1v1 means attacking their win conditions and broken lock pieces. In that vein attacking acceleration is pointless. We don't want to nerf the power level, we want to fix specific instances of cards whose power level spikes insanely in 1v1 play. There's a large banlist for highlander of cards like Sol Ring and if you want to play with that you CAN play highlander, and because EDH doesn't have such an extensive list obviously our power level is higher. We like that, and don't want to change that. If you feel something's wrong about this banlist that would cause you to not utilize it in 1v1 EDH play, I would enjoy your feedback. My goal is to provide a more suitable EDH list for those combo players who want to break the format and obviously have to test in 1v1. For them, there really isn't anything like what we are developing. If they use Highlander it's too f'ing weaksauce and if they use EDH they break the @#&$^@ out of the format. This is trying to solve the problem for those players, because it currently exiles them from normal EDH circles and the feedback of "take your deck away and go home" isn't something I feel EDH players should be saying to other EDH players.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-04 1:40 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
warble wrote:
One of the purposes of independent banlists is to contribute to the overall banlist and offer a prototyping sort of mode for the real banlist.


Certainly a noble goal. I, for one, will continue watching this thread as I think prototype/test lists like this are excellent proving grounds for ideas. They allow discussion/evolution of ideas which can, if they bear weight, be escalated for inclusion in the main list and/or a more widely endorsed set of dueling rules and bannings.

G

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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-08 2:08 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
At the store I'm playing at, we are currently trying to set up a 1 on 1 EDH league. I'll try and look out for cards that pop up a lot. However, from my playgroup's testing, this is what seems to be happening:

- Pretty much every deck WILL have a Duplicant. This guy solves every problem, so I will always have my Bribery ready to take Duplicant. More often than not, my Bribery's target will be Duplicant to take out your General.

- One resolved Mindslaver WILL win the game. Every single time, a resolved Mindslaver means I force you to take pain from your lands, force you to use cards that search and fail all the searches, force you to bounce/kill all your stuff, etc. If I don't win immediately, I will kill you in the next turn.

- Tinker for Darksteel Colossus usually wins. However, this has caused a shift in the metagame, causing players to run more RFG effects or bounce. Echoing Truth, Oblivion Ring, Devouring Light, Condemn, Capsize. These have all been used to get rid of the big 11-stick. However, by that time, you've probably already taken over two full swings of the big guy. However, if I see you run either blue or white, I can do one up better and just seal the game automatically with Tinker for Sundering Titan.

- Playing the Ravnica bouncelands is just asking to die on turn 2. You play a bounceland, I play my Strip Mine/Wasteland. This is basically the equivalent of being Time Walk'd. Not only that, but because your usual hand is about 3 land, you will not be able to find your land to make up for your loss for about 3 draws. Having Life from the Loam is just gravy. If you can, try and play Time Spiral storage lands instead. This way, you reduce the chance of getting Time Walk'd, and also, you signal that you may have a 2 mana instant.

- Zur can never get an attack phase. Ever. One swing means you're dead. Scenario 1: Trinket Mage finds Tel-Jilad Stylus. Zur swings to find Stasis. Oops. Scenario 2: Zur swings, finds Standstill. Oops. Scenario 3: Zur swings, finds Diplomatic Immunity. Zur swings, finds Solitary Confinement. Zur swings, finds Phyrexian Arena. Oops.

- Transmute sucks. Really. If you commit 3 mana for a search that may or may not be countered. Then, you also have the presence of Aven Mindcensor and Shadow of Doubt. Not to mention Voidmage Husher. The only ones worth playing are Muddle the Mixture (counterspell???) and Tolaria West (find your Pact of Negation).

- Almost everybody has blue in their deck. The only non-blue deck that does consistently well in 1 on 1 games is my friend's Doran. But that's only because he packs shitloads of hate. Basically, you want a combination of green, white, and black. Your basic hate cards are: Aven Mindcensor, Thoughtseize, Duress, Dosan the Falling Leaf, Gaddock Teeg, Mind Twist, Aether Vial, Hypnotic Specter, Imp's Mischief, Dawn Charm (counterspell mode for Bribery, Intuiton, Acquire, Gifts Ungiven, Chainer's Edict), Scrabbling Claws, Null Rod.

- You do not need big fatties to win. All you need to do is keep the board fairly clean and you can win with your utility 2/2's. Your fatties are only there to swing about 2 times. There have been games where I've dealt around 20 damage just from Civic Wayfinder, Mulldrifter, etc. alone. Now, my opponent will argue that this is EDH and that there's 40 damage, and that damage is insignificant. (Yes, I'm directing this at you; you know who you are.) That's wrong. Every swing with my utility 2/2's means that my bigger guys have to swing less, meaning that there's less of a chance my big guys get wiped by a kill spell. However, your beatsticks MUST be at LEAST 2/2. At a 1/1, your size becomes insignificant to the 2/2's facing you. However, 2/2 is special, in that, the cost is just right; it's in the range of the first four turns where your hand and board position is being set up.

- An early well-timed Mind Twist WILL end the game. There's almost nothing that can bring you back into the game. An example would be: Turn 1, Swamp, Sol Ring, Mind Stone. Turn 2, Swamp, Mind Twist for 4. Thanks for playing.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-08 5:18 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cmb_master wrote:
- One resolved Mindslaver WILL win the game. Every single time, a resolved Mindslaver means I force you to take pain from your lands, force you to use cards that search and fail all the searches, force you to bounce/kill all your stuff, etc. If I don't win immediately, I will kill you in the next turn.

- Tinker for Darksteel Colossus usually wins. However, this has caused a shift in the metagame, causing players to run more RFG effects or bounce. Echoing Truth, Oblivion Ring, Devouring Light, Condemn, Capsize. These have all been used to get rid of the big 11-stick. However, by that time, you've probably already taken over two full swings of the big guy. However, if I see you run either blue or white, I can do one up better and just seal the game automatically with Tinker for Sundering Titan.

- Zur can never get an attack phase. Ever. One swing means you're dead. Scenario 1: Trinket Mage finds Tel-Jilad Stylus. Zur swings to find Stasis. Oops. Scenario 2: Zur swings, finds Standstill. Oops. Scenario 3: Zur swings, finds Diplomatic Immunity. Zur swings, finds Solitary Confinement. Zur swings, finds Phyrexian Arena. Oops.

- An early well-timed Mind Twist WILL end the game. There's almost nothing that can bring you back into the game. An example would be: Turn 1, Swamp, Sol Ring, Mind Stone. Turn 2, Swamp, Mind Twist for 4. Thanks for playing.


Just some preliminary comments, and thank you very much for the well thought out criticism and commentary and I will elaborate in a few hours after my meetings, mindslaver really just needs a little support from the community to get banned in 1v1 play. It's awful in 1v1. Also, black is insane in 1v1 and mind twist IS NOT the best of the best there. And Zur is like any early general, leave him out for a while and you're asking for it.

Edit: Also, please don't give examples of "broken plays" that involve sol ring. I think we all know what's making that play broken and it isn't the f'ing mind twist!


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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-08 5:55 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Actually, I wasn't using that example to prove how broken Sol Ring was. I mean what I mean; Mind Twist is retardedly one-sided. I spent about 20 minutes putting together a Garza Zol deck on magic workstation just as a test, and ended up using almost all the same spells as the ones in my Intet. I also maxed out on the number of artifact mana so that I can ensure as much mana as fast as possible. If i have Mind Twist in my opening hand, I can guarantee you are out of the game. If I find it within the next 4 turns (not very hard, if you are using Gifts Ungiven or Intuition and tons of instant speed card draw) you will STILL be out of the game.

I'm guessing this is why Wizards made Mind Shatter cost B more. That one single extra black mana makes it much more difficult to play. Plus, the effectiveness of losing 1 discard is a big loss; at 4 mana, I would usually be able to Mind Twist for 3, leaving you with 2 cards. but Mind Shatter leaves you with 3. Leaving you with 2 at that point in the game means you either have 2 mana sources (meaning you're out of steam), or less, in which case, you either can't play your spells, or the spells you play just won't matter.

EDIT: Also, with regards to Mindslaver, it just punishes you the more greedy and unprepared you are. For example, playing Necropotence is just asking for it. Also, at the cost of Mindslaver (you should really think of this as costing 10 mana, not 6) it is much more difficult to pull off than, say, Mind Twist. Think about it this way. I Mind Twist you for 3 or 4 on turn 4. That's pretty much game. Now, in retrospect, I have to wait until about turn 8 earliest in order to Mindslaver you. Yes, Mindslaver has the potential of having the Mindslaver - Academy Ruins lock. But how much mana does that cost? That's right; it costs a total of 13. At that mana, anybody should be able to win. In fact, I could've combo'd out and bounced their entire board more than half a dozen turns ago, so the lock argument is out of the question. When you think about it, it's just as hard to pull off a Mindslaver win than any other combo win. If you really do consistently lose to Mindslaver, it's either that: 1) your combo is too slow, 2) your deck doesn't run enough disruptive cards, 3) your deck is being too greedy, or 4) it's just not aggressive enough.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-08 2:04 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
With regards to mindslaver, does everyone play artifact hate and is null rod a standard in your meta? Also, do you have any workshop and artifact-based decks? A workshop-based blue/red deck tends to get an active slaver rather quickly, given the massive draw7 and fast mana count as well as tinker. Even in lower powered decks mindslaver does tend to immediately end the game in a 1v1, and in higher power it comes too quickly for decent disruption but again I am already sold on Mindslaver and need other opinions.

Tinker->DsC usually wins…well if you can’t take creature combat I’m not sure your deck is EDH-worthy. My monoblue blue general is Barrin, Tinker colossus doesn’t bother me one bit. I do agree that Tinker is very swingy but do we have to ban it because of the disruption potential of Sundering Titan and the beatdown potential of DsC, combined with Mindslaver? It also is one of those iconic vintage cards, priced VERY CHEAP for it's power level and thus easily playable. Because I usually only tinker out Gilded Lotus I don't see it as that bad...but that's probably because I don't play mindslaver in 1v1 and DsC is worse than Gilded Lotus/Sundering Titan in my blue deck. Still, if a tinker in an even match is tipping the scales too much it should be noted. I think the deck that plays tinker deserves some advantage...it IS one of the most badass cards in the format...

Mind Twist – with regards to this spell, I love it and it’s great but I don’t think it wins I think it’s the friggin’ awesome-est playable disruption in EDH. I was playing my friend with monoblue and took him down to zero cards, kid topdecks Vedalken Shackles followed by Island, Island, Faerie Conclave and Morphling. Since my deck was skewed to disruption there wasn’t a ton that I could do and he massacred me. I think this is the typical dilemma with Mind Twist, you can keep a hand with a bunch of fast mana and a mind twist but after that your hand is so depleted you’re topdecking. Because I topdecked a bunch of creatures that just got shutdown I got massacred even with the nice twist because of a good(and lucky) blue deck. In that sense the game turned into a topdeck war after the fast twist and that is truly in the spirit of EDH.


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