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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-14 6:14 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
We pretty much already established that Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Mana Vault are great. They just happen to be in the special borderline position of being banned. Get over it.

I take personal offense to the statement of not playing against them. One of my friends plays Arcum Dagsson and his turn 1 basically goes like this:

Chrome Mox, Diamond Mox, Island, Sol Ring. Arcum Dagsson.

However, through some great playing on my part ;) I am able to survive.

I think the message I'm trying to get through is: suck it up.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-14 6:49 am 
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cmb_master wrote:
However, through some great playing on my part ;) I am able to survive.


lies...he played badly and you know it :roll:


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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-14 7:11 am 
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warble wrote:
At the, I guess, "consensus opinion" I added a new category, below everything else, of Broken Mana Sources. I am completely unable to fathom this forum's inability to group mana crypt with Sol Ring so I put both of them in. Perhaps it's that you guys don't have enough experience playing against Mana Crypt in a duel environment. FYI it goes something like turn 1 Land Crypt Thirst for Knowledge GG next? Please discuss, I'm really not sure what to do with those cards.


I think it's just that many of the people here are of the opinion that Wizards printed these cards and they're not over the top. I personally feel that the current banned list is fine, and that if you really want cards banned in a casual format when you're playing it, just make sure that everyone in your playgroup understands why you frown upon card X or card Y and find out if they feel the same way. You may think Mindslaver or Mana Crypt or whatever is broken, but I believe that everything has an answer, even in completely innoccuous cards. Also, if my opponent busts out with crazy fast mana action and doesn't refresh his hand, I've got a grip full of action and 39 life to expend to win.

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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-18 7:38 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Scout wrote:
Wizards printed these cards and they're not over the top. You may think Mindslaver or Mana Crypt or whatever is broken, but I believe that everything has an answer.


I think maybe you misunderstand, just because it has an answer doesn't mean it's fun. 4 Trinispheres in a Workshop deck...have you ever lost because you didn't have 2 force of will's in your opening hand? How about losing because your opponent force of wills twice on his opening turn? Plays that are so broken that they must be countered or win instantly aren't the spirit of EDH duels. The goal here is to bring the "we fight, we bleed, we die" aspect of an EDH multiplayer to a duel. Mindslaver in a duel doesn't always spell destruction and that is why I haven't even considered putting it on the banlist before Yawgmoth's Will. Anyone who has played against slaver or with it knows that there are answers and in no way is the threat disproportionate to the mana. Similarly for Tinker the cost prohibits a narrow-minded deck based around the card. Certain cards do "just come back" however, so we add the additional goal of trying to solve recursive broken engines no matter what the mana cost. One example is a card that "just wins" in the fashion of The Cheese Stands Alone. Cheesy, so that gets banned. It's not that important whether a card can accelerate and speed up and poof le pwn is laid. What matters is if someone can come in with a singleminded goal and execute that goal, no matter what the goal is, with such efficiency that a duel environment cannot exist without being irreparably harmed by the response to the threat and that threat's existence in one of the decks. The issue of what "harm" is defined as should probably just be a majority opinion or a well organized minority so one person's opinion in fact isn't all that relevant unless it is well justified.


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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-18 8:39 am 
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warble wrote:
Scout wrote:
Wizards printed these cards and they're not over the top. You may think Mindslaver or Mana Crypt or whatever is broken, but I believe that everything has an answer.


I think maybe you misunderstand, just because it has an answer doesn't mean it's fun. 4 Trinispheres in a Workshop deck...


I believe that's why the DCI restricted it. And this is a highlander format.

Quote:
How about losing because your opponent force of wills twice on his opening turn?

Yeah, that's happened a couple times. But it's part of the game. And it isn't going to happen in a highlander format unless there's some crazy shenanigans, and crazy shenanigans are always awesome even if you're on the losing end.

Quote:
Plays that are so broken that they must be countered or win instantly aren't the spirit of EDH duels. The goal here is to bring the "we fight, we bleed, we die" aspect of an EDH multiplayer to a duel. Mindslaver in a duel doesn't always spell destruction and that is why I haven't even considered putting it on the banlist before Yawgmoth's Will. Anyone who has played against slaver or with it knows that there are answers and in no way is the threat disproportionate to the mana. Similarly for Tinker the cost prohibits a narrow-minded deck based around the card. Certain cards do "just come back" however, so we add the additional goal of trying to solve recursive broken engines no matter what the mana cost. One example is a card that "just wins" in the fashion of The Cheese Stands Alone. Cheesy, so that gets banned. It's not that important whether a card can accelerate and speed up and poof le pwn is laid. What matters is if someone can come in with a singleminded goal and execute that goal, no matter what the goal is, with such efficiency that a duel environment cannot exist without being irreparably harmed by the response to the threat and that threat's existence in one of the decks. The issue of what "harm" is defined as should probably just be a majority opinion or a well organized minority so one person's opinion in fact isn't all that relevant unless it is well justified.


I just feel, and this is my own gut feeling based on the games I've played (both duels and multiplayer), that the highlander base of the format intuitively prevents incredibly broken combos from being used to "just win". Sure, you may have Tinker and ways to recur it, but the slots you use to put them in your deck I can run answers, from Shattering Spree to Krosan Grip to Disenchant to Shadow of Doubt. I've never seen anyone play a card that someone else didn't have an answer to. I feel that the rules committee, as is, has done an excellent job with which cards should be banned or not (although, I feel Worldpurge should probably be on the list just in principle).

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AgePosted: 2008-Jul-19 11:11 am 
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Except Worldpurge is a very fair card. Unlike Obliterate or Upheaval, it can't be used as a way to gain a major, almost insurmountable advantage.


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AgePosted: 2008-Aug-14 6:24 am 
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Scout wrote:
I feel that the rules committee, as is, has done an excellent job with which cards should be banned or not


So does that mean you disagree with every single change in this proposed duel banlist? I'd be very interested to hear your arguments, especially those revolving around painter/grind, led/salvagers and Power Artifact. Srsly...it's ok for duel...?

Also, just curious, does anyone have any interest in also "loosening" the color restrictions to allow hybrid and split cards in non-5-color decks containing less than all of the required colors? This is highly applicable because 5-color probably is poonage and other decks may rely on this to compete against 5-color...especially given that this subset of cards seems to be growing in strength as a utility metagaming toolbox set rather quickly. I haven't suggested just having the general be a playable avatar with increasing cost "yet" but...I really would like to see karn and memnarch decks up against 5 color so...


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AgePosted: 2008-Aug-20 12:55 am 
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@warble : okay for the list (more or less) 'cause heads up is very different to multiplayer. But what's the interest in changing the "color matters" rule? Not playing EDH anylonger?

The thing I like about EDH is the flavour. Okay, in heads up, flavour faded a bit when compared to strategy. But if you remove all the flavour, why not playing a singleton (classical highlander) with a general?

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AgePosted: 2008-Aug-20 8:27 am 
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Token wrote:
@warble : okay for the list (more or less) 'cause heads up is very different to multiplayer. But what's the interest in changing the "color matters" rule? Not playing EDH anylonger?

The thing I like about EDH is the flavour. Okay, in heads up, flavour faded a bit when compared to strategy. But if you remove all the flavour, why not playing a singleton (classical highlander) with a general?


Okay you've found me out, I have 17 other casual decks and only 5 edh, and I don't have any multicolor EDH decks. While I appreciate what EDH is trying to do for casual, in a duel environment the reigns do need to be loosened or more disruptive rules should be put in place (like more bans or restrictions). While walking down the road of more bans I think perhaps dueling decks will appreciate getting a little power boost when they are NOT five color. I'm trying to add some competition because the deck I tune my monocolor decks against is the monoblue and there's no way anything but 5 color or perhaps monoblack combo or white weenie will do anything against the deck. One of the main reasons is that the workshop deck doesn't have a good general, and that's because it's not an artifact. Another is that dovescape can't be run in monoblue or monowhite and it was my monowhite win condition...so it's a serious issue for that deck.

I respect the flavor argument and because of my game design experience I've got no issues with its use...but it's not like I'm using EDH's regular banlist anyway so what's an inch once you've run a mile? If you consider what a duel environment is, it's far more scrappy and toolbox-y and combo-y than regular edh...and much faster. If you can get 3 extra 2-for-1 mana denial cards and 4 extra spot removal from split cards it WILL make a difference and turn the tide of the game. All we would need to do is acknowledge that in a duel a wizard must resort to pulling every last trick out of the bag...and I think that would include split and hybrid cards. Of course this argument does apply to regular EDH, but for simplicity I'm not advocating its use...not that you can't guess my opinion on the matter. Also, the change allows the format to "seem more normal" for players of, well, every other format where this isn't an issue. It's possible that that would increase our player base and if we can get THAT...and tournaments do rely heavily on duels to sort out, for example, #1 from #2...we might be onto something. Not that EDH ever has to go competitive...but I hope we can figure out what "competitive EDH" means and sort that out so at least Wizards has a "side format candidate" that it can begin showcasing at its events. It's far more fun to walk over to a table and see a bunch of kids playing for prizes (and obviously you check out the top table in that tournament) than to check out the judges playing with a lot of old cards and funky rules that restrict deckbuilding and deck power levels needlessly.

So...anyway...the basis for a tournament like that might be simply 100 card highlander with a general, increasing cost of (2) and the RFG opportunity whenever a general is removed from the "in play" zone. It's an easy format to understand and construct, there's not a lot to "misinterpret", and while deck diversity obviously suffers from tournament play and a plethora of 5 color control/combo decks we haven't roped anyone into not playing their standard EDH deck...we've just allowed the people who tweak and want competitive play to do that.

But, I've delved off-topic for too long and realistically what I'm trying to do is provide a banlist for both formats, regardless of whether the color splash issue falls one way or the other. One thing that is still broken is the Tidespout Tyrant infinite, and I'll be honest I'm just bringing this up because that's how my monoblue deck wins every time. Does anyone here think it's too broken to be allowed in EDH? I personally would have to use restraint if Tidespout Tyrant is in play and I get an untap phase...to not win. Is Tidespout kind-of an EDH-win-condition because EDH lasts that long? Here I am asking if anyone wants to nerf my pet deck...


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AgePosted: 2008-Sep-09 4:59 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-04 9:41 am
Age: Dragon
Why should there be a discussion about which cards should be banned in addition the ones posted in the official thread? For duels you can use normal singleton rules. For multiplay, just ride the waves.

At our place we take the banned list and just add cards we don't think is fun. Which at the moment, is 3 cards. Survival o/t Fittest because it's so awesome it's lame. Black Myojin, because when everyone who has access to black plays it, it comes down to who draws him. Additionally, it royally sucks for the ones not playing black. SDT, because games bog down immensely when 4 people have top out.

As one of the previous posters noted, why don't you just add hate cards? One of the players in our group just ravaged the table a few times with Zur. Now we pack fracturing gust, multani's decree, tranquil grove, etc. Week later he wins with a karn deck, generating a crapload of mana and killing us. He did that one time, because the next game his mana accelerators were shot on sight. Just be flexible in deck construction.


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 Post subject: Q
AgePosted: 2008-Dec-04 3:04 pm 

Joined: 2008-Dec-04 1:03 pm
Age: Wyvern
cmb_master wrote:
I find it truly funny, that you have all these less broken cards here, whereas, I can just Tinker for my Mindslaver and kill you with your own Necropotence...

"SNAP"

Demonic Tutor - Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt
Flash - Counterspells???
Gifts Ungiven - Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt, Withered Wretch, GOOD PLAY SKILL
Hermit Druid - MY GOD. Just about any removal kills this guy. If you're holding a removal, you KILL this guy.
Imperial Seal - Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt
Intuition - Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt
Land Tax - This one is actually annoying. I have nothing to say for this one.
Life from the Loam - Withered Wretch
Mana Crypt - First of all, good luck finding one of these. Second, Chalice of the Void for 0, Engineered Explosives for 0...Powder Keg...(Card's still good though)
Mana Vault - Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg...(Card's still good though)
Memory Jar - Okay, this is a truly good card here. Just about nothing you can do to stop it. I can only think of Stifle, Trickbind and Voidmage Husher. Play the Husher.
Mind Twist: COUNTERSPELL. Or a Misdirection effect. The latter is funnier.
Necropotence - Mindslaver, pffft. Enchantment removal.
Skullclamp - Is this really as good in this format as the other ones? I can see it being great with Sek'kuar. Or other decks built to abuse it. But are you really gonna build an entire deck to abuse your singleton Skullclamp? Anyway, basic artifact destruction here.
Sol Ring - AWESOME CARD. There is just about nothing that can replace the tempo advantage this thing gives. Every single turn, you're power-boosted one turn. By the time you have a solution for it, it doesn't matter anymore. Um, I got no solution for this one. Truly a great card.
Survival of the Fittest - Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt, enchantment destruction
Timetwister - Good card here. Only counterspells for this one.
Tinker - Yeah, I have to admit, this is stupidly broken. I love using this card. But even this card has a buffer time. When you Tinker, you first need the artifact to sacrifice, which isn't too hard if you have a couple artifact land, artifact mana sources, etc. But the second part to recognize is what you get with your Tinker. The most usual choices are Darksteel Colossus, Sundering Titan, Platinum Angel, Duplicant, and Mindslaver. With Mindslaver, you need to ensure you have the 4 extra mana available at your disposal before you can use the Tinker effectively. At this point in the game, your opponent may have a counterspell, an Aven Mindcensor or Shadow of Doubt, or even anything that counters activated abilities. Congratulations, you have just been 2(or 3) for 1'd. With Darksteel Colossus and Platinum Angel, they can just as easily be BOUNCED, which can sometimes lead to a pretty useless Darksteel Colossus in the hand. This is where you pack in your Echoing Truth's. The rest is pretty much self-explanatory; play artifact destruction. Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, Seal of Primordium, Disenchant, etc.
Vampiric Tutor - Aven Mindcensor, Shadow of Doubt (I'm pretty sure you get the idea by now)
Wheel of Fortune - Great card. Only counterspells


I gave you an entire list of solutions to just about all of these cards. Now, some, you may not be that satisfied with, but I'm writing this on a whim here, so you can probably do better. But for basic metagame calls, I would recommend the following anti-metagame cards.

Aven Mindcensor
Shadow of Doubt
Voidmage Husher
Engineered Explosives
Ancient Grudge
Withered Wretch
Scrabbling Claws
Aether Vial
Gaddock Teeg
Dosan, the Falling Leaf
Duress
Echoing Truth
Powder Keg
Seal of Primodrium
Krosan Grip

This is just a basic list, but a list of cards that I personally would use. I did however, acknowledge that some of the cards listed ARE good. But a lot of them...no. For now, I believe the basic ban list is fine, but adding a couple of these wouldn't hurt much either.


first of all i gotta say CMB_Master you rock. Everyone else you're full of shit. THIS IS BLOODY MAGIC EDH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. you are assuming that you are gonna get the said card out every single game. there have bean times when i've twisted a way a persons hand and there are times when its been done to me. you dont QQ about it you prepare for it. and if you're stupid enough not to then well yea GG you got fucked buddy sorry. I wanna say something really quickly TINKERING FOR A COLLOSUS ARE YOU ON FUCKING CRACK BUDDY... I have NEVER tutored for a colosus because it has either been killed, removed, or taken care of in some way. someone will always have a way to deal with a DSC. its been bounced, its been saced, hell its been fettered one time, its been dealt with in every way and while youre sitting there twiddling your thumbs your opponent is doing other stuff. like its got a big target painted on its head. like cmb master said there are ways to deal with it and protect yourself. Everyone is fucking QQing about combo but its that way in EVERY FORMAT OF MAGIC. Control beats combo, combo beats aggro, aggro beats control. its very simple. just because everyone is too stupid to play anything other then combo its not our fault. Like if you play black you should not get gayed out by gy effects. withered wretch and that 2 to cast transmuter that also removes gy cards from the game. not to mention having out a fucking graverobber. if you care so much then carry a crypt in your back pocket like iunno people. instead of bitching that cards are so broken then how about you go and look for ways to deal with those said cards. I'm sick and tired of listening to you all lollygagging and how things are broken and stupid and annoying. DEAL WITH IT!. you've got 90% of mtg's arsenal to deal with. 99% of your solutions can be dealt with a simple card ITS CALLED PITHING NEEDLE, slaver? no, ruins? no. most general abilities? no. like people its not hard to find solutions. it really isn't. so get off your ass take a thinking pill and figure out what to do in order to deal with things that you don't like. for control decks? its called a boseju. you don't like zur? play mass enchantment removal. for green multani's decree is a great one. shatterstorms are good. How about krosan Grip? If i wanted to I could make a deck with 20 mass removal effects 10 acceleration and 30 other removal and control and win with my fucking general. and if you think there aren't 20 mass removal spells you're really mistaken. wog, damnation, rout, final judgment, soulscour, austerior command, disc, ostone, the thing that puts creatures on the bottom of the library and the list goes on and on. don't bitch at me that theres no way to deal with things if you haven't tried. and if I DARE see a fucking mass removal deck with 1 creature I will slap you silly the deck is a figure if speech.

peace out.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-04 3:08 pm 
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Location: Calgary, AB
AvianX:

A) I've removed your atrocious avatar image... if you can find one which is the same size as everyone else's feel free to use that instead.

B) Your language is unacceptable, as is your attitude towards everyone else.

Chill out. A lot. Now.

G


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 Post subject: Re: Q
AgePosted: 2008-Dec-05 7:15 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
AvianX wrote:
ANGER!


I'm hoping that post was a joke? Anyway I'll post some so that gets buried in the mix.

Anyway I'm thinking the discussion at this point should be basically mind twist and survival of the fittest. Is SotF really that broken? In my experience it is either taken out immediately or generates some mad advantage that forces the table to gang the person who has it out. The thing with mind twist is that it kinda does pwn the player who it's against and in a duel that's like a 3 or 4 card advantage (although a card like vedalken shackles seems to be more powerful in a duel...imho...) so anyone have any opinions on mind twist and survival?

My core reason I think both are fine is that the most powerful decks run blue, if you're not running blue you're accelerating your hand out and therefore something like mind twist is only relevant for a couple of turns. As for survival it's REALLY cheap to play out and REALLY fast so it's possibly gotta get the axe...I'm thinking...but still playing it because it's fun and doesn't seem to be combo-ing out games merely dominating them. Dominating, to me, isn't ruining EDH(like 2 card win combos) it's accelerating it which is the purpose of vintage/type 1 to me.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-05 10:49 am 

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Age: Wyvern
Genomancer wrote:
AvianX:

A) I've removed your atrocious avatar image... if you can find one which is the same size as everyone else's feel free to use that instead.

B) Your language is unacceptable, as is your attitude towards everyone else.

Chill out. A lot. Now.

G


of COURSE!!! /bow we must be politically correct and respect everyone. My apologies good sir, I will do better in the future.

now talking about the task at hand! teh borkeness of blue decks? blue does tend to have a wild advantage over other decks but there are certain generals that don't rely on blue much at all that are powerful in their own right if build properly like gaddock teeg or doran. Very powerful generals that don't carry blue in them at all. My friend plays Oona and as much as you would like to think there is a lot of blue in it, there is in fact no blue in it. There is a memory plunder and a fact or fiction the rest is mono black and I have to say it is exceptionally powerful. now sotf is indeed a powerful card but if a person doesn't have ways to deal with enchantments in their decks then well gj you lost the same can be said for anything of that sort. You could very well have a jitte on the board and dominate if you can't deal with artifacts and enchantments. Thats one of the most fundamental basis's for a good deck. With response to mind twist it is only truly effective at the most if it is played rtight at the beginning of the game with a very good accel hand to boost it. although iit can be a pain in the butt you need to take precautions against it. Because i've had people doing stuff like mind twist and draining me to death a lot I started playing seht's tiger and ivory mask. This way I don't get owned like that. When I see my deck has a weakness I find cards to rectify that wieakness so that it will be better in the future. I just realized one of my decks with a blue base needs to have 90% of my counter base removed for the sole reason that I'm not a control deck. I do not want to play control with spells I play artifact control and its eating up spots that I need.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-06 1:45 am 

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Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Thanks for the props :)

Here are my thoughts:

The 1 on 1 format is extremely different from the multiplayer format. The speed is exponentially faster, and card values are completely different. However, a lot of the cards that are mentioned here are only powerful because of how unprepared opponents are. Let's take Mind Twist as an example. Mind Twist is certainly a powerful card. However, it's value decreases as theoretical game time passes by. Theoretical game time is the development of the game as it progresses. This means, how quickly you are able to establish actual playing; not just draw go. If your deck is designed to establish game faster, then Mind Twist cannot hurt you. For example, Mind Twist is usually powered out at X = 3 or X = 4. On average, this should happen on turn 4. However, at this point, I would have dropped a couple of threats, or would have prepared to have a post-Mind Twist plan ready, such as accelerating to my general. With regards to Survival of the Fittest, this is clearly a combo card involving the graveyard, and it can be taken down by the likes of Wheel of Sun and Moon, Relic of Progenitus, etc. This is all part of the metagame; knowing that such cards exist, players must build in accordance to this. If anything, I believe the most important spells in this format, and the ones that's holding it together are: Force of Will, Misdirection, Duress, Thoughtseize, Shadow of Doubt, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Gaddock Teeg, Strip Mine, Wasteland. Also, as an aside, due to the number of common converted mana costs, Counterbalance has recently proven to be quite good; countering quite a number of 2 to 4 CC spells, even without the use of Sensei's Divining Top. I still wouldn't use it personally, but it's worth a try.

These metagame problems are clearly why I play with these rules: 10 card sideboard and 30 life. The number of cards it requires to provide hate against certain strategies simply cannot fit in the same deck containing only 99 cards. Even with overlap in effectiveness, there will either be certain hate cards left out or not enough of every kind. Having a sideboard allows for quick rethinking of strategies in 2/3 matches and changes the dynamic of EDH strategy. Also, with the sideboard implemented, it allows Wishes to be playable beyond RFG'd cards, which creates even more room for design during deckbuilding. (There are many tricks I would love to use with Research/Development because of sideboards.) With regards to 30 life, I have said it many times before; if we play at 40, you just won't win; control just stabilizes after about 25 damage or so, and at that point, dealing the extra 15 is a huge hill to climb for aggro. Decreasing it by 10 makes it a much easier task.

If I had to decide on any cards that needed to be seriously banned, it would have to be Tinker. Time Vault is also there, but many have already agreed to that, and it seems unanimous that it will soon be banned. Gifts Ungiven is also a big contender, as it can easily generate an inevitable combo, no matter what two cards your opponent gives you.

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