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 Post subject: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-27 6:08 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
This is very rough draft...

Critters
Archfiend of Ifnir
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Borborygmos Enraged
Eternal Witness
Gitrog Monster
Golgari Thug
Hazoret the Fervent
Krosan Tusker
Mina and Denn
Oracle of Mul Daya
Ramunap Excavator
Scion of Darkness
Shefet Monitor
Stinkweed Imp

Artifacts
Crucible of Worlds
Key to the City
Zuran Orb

Enchants
Faith of the Devoted
Lightning Rift
Molten Vortex
Seismic Assault
Exploration
Retreat to Hagra

Instants
Constant Mists
Crop Rotation
Darkblast
Expunge
Haze of Pollen
Heaven // Earth
Insidious Dreams
Lull
Moment's Peace
Realms Uncharted
Repopulate
Shadow of the Grave
Starstorm
Strangling Soot
Swat

Sorceries
Conflagrate
Creeping Renaissance
Cut // Ribbons
Decree of Pain
Devastating Dreams
Edge of Autumn
Explore
Faithless Looting
Grave Upheaval
Hour of Promise
Life from the Loam
Nostalgic Dreams
Razaketh's Rite
Recoup
Restless Dreams
Sickening Dreams
Slice and Dice
Splendid Reclamation
Summer Bloom
Sweltering Suns
Treacherous Terrain

Lands
Ash Barrens
Barren Moor
Canyon Slough
Desert of the Fervent
Desert of the Glorified
Desert of the Indomitable
Forgotten Cave
Polluted Mire
Sheltered Thicket
Slippery Karst
Smoldering Crater
Tranquil Thicket
Dakmor Salvage
Golgari Rotfarm
Gruul Turf
Rakdos Carnarium
Blighted Woodland
Myriad Landscape
Bojuka Bog
Drownyard Temple
Dunes of the Dead
Hissing Quagmire
Lavaclaw Reaches
Memorial to Folly
Mortuary Mire
Petrified Field
Raging Ravine
Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
Spinerock Knoll
+ other utility lands

There's a lot of basic stuff I haven't figured out... how many lands do I play? How many colorless lands can I fit in? How douche-y do I want to be with Dust Bowl? Do I need more landfall creatures?

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-27 11:39 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've been running Jund lands for a while, first under Xira Arien, now under Windgrace.

My build sits around 40 lands, sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't run Deserts mostly because the existing ones are painfully lackluster. The cycling ones are closest to being playable but once you have the Urza's colorless cycling lands, the Onslaught cycling lands, and the Amonkhet cycling duals, you don't really need more.

A word on the cycling cards: while Archfiend of Ifnir is hands-down one of the best creatures in the deck, that doesn't justify running otherwise lackluster cycling cards like Edge of Autumn to enable him. I ran EoA for a while but cut it eventually because neither half of the card really did anything and spell space was tight. Undead Gladiator is one great cycling card you're not running, by the way, especially with Rift and Faith in the deck.

I don't think you need Borborygmos, Assault, and Vortex when you're also running Faith and Rift. It's a lot of chip damage based on pitching lands, but the bottleneck for those kinds of cards is not whether you have enough fodder but whether you can get the lands back into your hand. Once you have LftL or a big Renaissance killing your opponents is academic, but without those two cards all your land-pitching effects become painfully mediocre. You can use Petrified Field in conjunction with Crucible effects, but that is really, really slow (I'd still run Field though).

I wouldn't worry about Dust Bowl unless people in your meta are particularly touchy about LD. I run Bowl, Wasteland, and Destructive Flow and it's the right level of mana control. It disproportionately punishes competitive decks since they tend to have good multicolor mana bases, while leaving more casual decks relatively unhindered.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-30 11:40 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Was just checking out Bennie Smith's list over at SCG... how do you feel about these?

Omnath, Locus of Rage
World Shaper
Wayward Swordtooth
Centaur Vinecrasher

I'm also ambivalent on Courser of Kruphix; kinda neat with Insidious Dreams, but I'm not sure how much utility it really has.

Does this list fall over and die if Life from the Loam gets exiled?

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Aug-31 1:40 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Kemev wrote:
Was just checking out Bennie Smith's list over at SCG... how do you feel about these?

Omnath, Locus of Rage
World Shaper
Wayward Swordtooth
Centaur Vinecrasher

I'm also ambivalent on Courser of Kruphix; kinda neat with Insidious Dreams, but I'm not sure how much utility it really has.

Does this list fall over and die if Life from the Loam gets exiled?


I have 3 of these. The Wayward Swordtooth seems like "more of" attached to a beater. If I wanted to cut Exploration, maybe but I'm not hot on him.

Courser is good in my list because I'm upwards of 45 lands and the lifegain is occasionally useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-01 2:59 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
To answer your questions:

1) Of the four cards you mentioned, I run none of them. Omnath is closest to making it but RR is rough for my deck and he tends to play as a big dumb beater when you cast him. World Shaper works against your plan since it will empty your graveyard of lands. Swordtooth is alright, but you'll likely run out of lands you want to play well before you run out of extra land drops. Vinecrasher is the definition of filler.

2) Courser is fine. Control decks like their life and pulling lands off the top makes Windgrace's draw better.

3) Yes and no. First, I run Riftsweeper to protect against that eventuality. That said, Creeping Renaissance is your main source of burst damage, so if that gets hit it's actually way harder for you to kill the table before hell freezes over. Loam is much better as a draw engine that puts all your lands into your yard for CR.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-12 3:18 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Is Underrealm Lich going to be good in this deck?

Also, I didn't list Praetor's Counsel... it seems like an easy add

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-14 5:24 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
I got in a couple games with this, lost both... first game I was slow rolling Decree of Pain vs. mono-green stompy and got blown out by Heroic Intervention. Second game I got trapped under a Leyline of the Void and never recovered.

Deck has a lot of potential though, and I'm still missing quite a few key cards (for some reason I can't find my Gitrog Monster :( )

I didn't add in Molten Vortex, and I'll probably end up cutting Seismic Assault (the trip red is kinda annoying), but I like Borborygmos. I think I want more mid-rangey guys; I've got enough X-damage burn spells that I can let them survive while I wipe the smaller critters.

I also played around with Punishing Fire + Grove of the Burnwillows... felt really good against mono-green (at least, until Leyline landed from another player), but the opponent's lifegain is actually relevant so I don't know if I should keep it.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-15 3:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah, the Punishing Grove combo definitely seems way worse in this format than it is in normal Constructed formats.

More midrange guys will help you weather graveyard hate but you won't have a finisher without some kind of combo or some kind of way to quickly go wide. I haven't found a card in this color combination that strikes the right balance between being independent of the graveyard, reliably making multiple tokens in a single turn, making tokens that are reasonably threatening on their own, and which doesn't cost a billion mana or require a complicated setup. It's made me wonder whether Lord Windgrace is actually powerful enough to stay Jund or if I wouldn't be better playing four colors (I'm thinking Vial Smasher + Thrasios or Tana + Ravos).

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-15 7:17 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Hope this post is helpful...

I. Foundation
A Windgrace build should probably be playing atleast 40 land- and run a higher-than-average Basic count for a 3-color deck (would even venture to say somewhere in the range of 24.) The first slot to occupy is Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth for the 1-2 punch of flavor and tech win.

Next, with 98 other slots- I think it's important to consider how Jund can utilize lands- specifically that while the BG side can dredge, the R side can use hard filtration and wheels. I think that Mulch variants are key here (I would reduce the dredging to just Life from the Loam and Darkblast in your first list in favor of playing more Impulse+selfmill like Mulch.) For Windgrace in particular, we want ways to put lands into our hands- but I think playing Karoos is the worst way to do it, if you aren't building a straightup Landfall Engine. For this reason, I think that the deck always wants to build itself more on Far Wanderings, Cultivate and Kodama's Reach- than usual suspects like Skyshroud Claim or Farseek. For win-conditions, I'm particularly fond of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle + Prismatic Omen (granted, if you don't have those, Prismatic's paper price has gotten ridiculous;) but my favorite would be Terravore.

II. Engines
Engine generals (like Windgrace) are some of my favorite- but what I've learned is that they only really give you the ability to "get into drive"- your deck should still combine it ofc, but each other engine piece needs to push the one at the core (Windgrace's +2)- while Seismic Assault effects are cool- they eat up the same fuel source without being entirely redundant like Magmatic Insight. So, I might suggest looking into Greater Good/Life's Legacy and using guys with odd scaling that works in a Mulch deck (like Terravore.) If you prefer the "Lands are Dudes" angle, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa could make for an excellent slot- also allowing you to slow down Wrath happy opponents. Also always a big fan of Warstorm Surge in anything with Mountains that want to go super big. If you're really married to Seismic Assault though, then you'll probably want a Storm Cauldron to pull that trigger.

For basic fuel, I would definitely start with Painful Truths, Wheel of Fate, Reforge the Soul, and Life's Legacy- since you want to see as much of your deck as you can; where excessively cycling slows down your gameplan considerably- and your gas wants to tie in with mulch/dredge effects for progressively deeper reach.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-15 9:26 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Eh, I'm going to slightly disagree.

For reference, my build is here.

Seismic Assault isn't an engine, it's a combo piece. You dump your library into your graveyard and then you use Creeping Renaissance to put all of your dead lands into your hand, then fling them all to kill everyone. You can use Assault along the way for light board control but honestly it's usually not worth it because most creatures are either too large to efficiently kill that way, have protection, or are high-volume chaff. You play Assault when you're ready to win.

If you wanted to make ValueWindgrace.deck then sure, run lots of basics, run wheels, etc. However, I think that deck - along with most value-oriented decks whose primary win condition is "grinding people out" - is a trap. EDH games don't end because someone got incremental card advantage, partially because everyone will be getting incremental card advantage all the time and partially because there are too many ways to interact with your engine and choke it or shut it down. The average casual EDH table is a midrange hell of grinding attrition, so being just another Value-Attrition deck doesn't put you at an advantage.

EDH games end because someone did something so powerful they outstripped the rest of the table's ability to stop them. This can be something like explosive like making fifty tokens and then dropping Craterhoof, but it can also be out-attritioning the attrition decks by playing full on Stax and locking people out of the game. Simply being an engine deck is the worst place to be because you have no clear, consistent path to eking out an advantage over your opponents and ending the game, and everyone at the table will likely be playing a "survival and outlast" scenario.

In that sense, the most valuable thing about Windgrace is that he lets you dredge twice per turn, so you turf your library twice as fast. That's where the real engine is.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-17 12:48 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Mr Degradation wrote:
Hope this post is helpful...


So, all of these things are true. Cultivate et al are the most efficient ramp spells. The wheels are excellent if you have mana and graveyard advantage. Adding more EtB creatures, or effects like Warstorm Surge that trigger off creature EtBs would be powerful.

But I'm with AZ here; if the goal is mid-range efficiency, that's probably not Windgrace. The commander you probably want is Prossh, who's the monster that breaks the midrange-slugfest by being hyper efficient and powerful.

I built that deck already. It was pretty fun. Now I wanna do something different.

So as long as I'm playing with Windgrace, I want to figure out his dials, turn them to 11, and make him the Windgraciest of all possible Windgraces.

Edit: Also, I regret cutting Hush from the first list of this. I'm still peeved at Leyline of the Void.

Aggro_zombies wrote:
decklist


The maindeck Meren is kinda spicy. I think my deck's going in a different direction... it's looking more like a sloth-speed, recent Legacy-list lands control instead of one of the older Aggro loam builds.

You ever try playing Null Rod in your list?

Edit: Also, I regret cutting Hush from the first list of this. I'm still peeved at Leyline of the Void.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-18 9:44 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
The maindeck Meren is kinda spicy. I think my deck's going in a different direction... it's looking more like a sloth-speed, recent Legacy-list lands control instead of one of the older Aggro loam builds.

I wanted a way to find creature recursion with Green Sun's Zenith, and Meren seemed like the best fit for the job. My build is also making the transition from midrange to control the more I play it.

Quote:
You ever try playing Null Rod in your list?

I'm thinking about Null Rod and Sphere of Resistance or Damping Sphere.

Bane of Progress has been huge for me in every way. I'm not sure how I wasn't running that card in anything before but I want more copies of it now.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Sep-27 4:17 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
For the record, when you're ahead on life, Praetor's counsel into Sickening Dreams is pretty neat.

Does this deck need Mesmeric Orb to give it a hearty dose of hurry the fuck up?

Aggro_zombies wrote:


Bane of Progress has been huge for me in every way. I'm not sure how I wasn't running that card in anything before but I want more copies of it now.


Yeah, it goes in every green deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-01 12:01 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
For the record, when you're ahead on life, Praetor's counsel into Sickening Dreams is pretty neat.

Does this deck need Mesmeric Orb to give it a hearty dose of hurry the fuck up?

You could run it. I've found it's really hard to keep the card around for a full turn cycle, though, especially with no counterspells.

To answer your earlier question, Underrealm Lich might be the better version of that effect. It's tutorable with creature-only tutors, it can dodge "destroy" removal, it beats for a reasonable chunk of damage, and it's less likely to draw the ire of random opponents. It's also probably not that much slower in the midgame.

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 Post subject: Re: Dream On, Lord Windgrace
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-01 12:24 pm 

Joined: 2018-Oct-01 11:59 am
Age: Wyvern
I think you could use some early-game draw effects. It will better fuel your Exploration effects so you can start playing your bigger cards earlier. Phyrexian Arena is an all-star.


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