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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice for a Yennet deck
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-26 3:36 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Kemev wrote:
Are we talking about the same Jace?
Because Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a repeatable Brainstorm, which is exactly what Yennet wants.


To a degree, but if you already have a Top, Mystic Speculation, an Esper top-of-deck-tutor, any spammable scry-stick, any kind of spell that recurs Brainstorm proper, or Dream Cache, or any flavor of sticking things from a zone ontop of your deck- Jace's manacost for something that has to be protected from dudes who have incidental evasion (a very significant amount of EDH at any level,) makes it lackluster compared to decks which can afford to sandbag Jace as an incidental omnitool.

For my game-sense, Jace doesn't get the function of time unless you immediately drive straight into extra turns, or can afford taking the CA loss from protecting it. Being a Planeswalker with 3 loyalty and costing more mana than other fixing tools makes it's roleplayer status suspect. I wouldn't go so far as to say "you're wrong", but I hope that this post has made my outlook on it clearer. Jace is still among the most powerful cards in MtG, but the difficulty of getting real use out of the Fateseal- and the amount of combat involved in EDH before consideration like damage spells, planeswalker hate etc. really does make me hesitate to suggest it over a bomb that Yennet can cheat the cost of, or the much more mana efficient sources of filtration.

I don't think Yennet wants to play many cards that are best sandbagged- when her primary asset is playing things without mana costs. Would almost always rather slowroll Yennet- and pick a specific time to hit some flavor of "Draw 5", or something like Tragic Arrogance, Slaughter the Strong etc with a setup tool that is mana efficient, and not as easy to screw with as a good combat step. Doing that once is often strong enough to swing a game.

Respecc if you still disagree anyways :P

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice for a Yennet deck
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-29 1:38 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Kemev wrote:
It's a little hard to guess at a removal mix; I'm starting to move away from Damnation/Wrath in favor of the 5 mana wipes with other upsides, but if you're playing against fast decks the extra turn can be relevant. It looks like you updated your tappedout list -- I think what you've got currently is an upgrade. The only cards I'd second guess are Crush Contraband and Utter End; they're obviously strong, but 4 mana is a lot to hold up sometimes.

I'm not sure about Counterbalance in EDH. When Top was Legacy legal (or Extended legal, I guess), Counter-Top worked well because most 60 card decks are mostly made of 1-3 CMC cards. If you could float a 1, 2, and 3 CMC card on top of your library with Top, you'd have a soft lock on your opponent. It's harder to set up in EDH, 'cause the mana curves stretch out further, and this list has obvious holes that it can't counter.

Lands are secretly the best card type in Commander, and Expedition Map is a tutor any deck can run to grab them. (In most decks it's also easily reusable; this particular list doesn't use Sun Titan effectively as others, so you get less mileage out of it, but still...)
Think about how many problems Map solves:
Need to set up your Crucible engine? Get fetch land
Need to recur a creature? What about a guaranteed Yennet cast? Volrath's Stronghold
Need GY removal? Get Bojuka Bog
Need a creature handled? Kor Haven, a Maze, etc
Need a creature of your own? Plenty of creature lands to pull from
Someone else on the "lands-are-great" bandwagon? Strip Mine

Mr Degradation wrote:
Also, Jace is a weird call.


Are we talking about the same Jace?
Because Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a repeatable Brainstorm, which is exactly what Yennet wants.


Thanks both you and Mr. Degradation have convinced me to do some changes I am happy about.

I will improving in this direction when I can get the cards

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Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice for a Yennet deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-06 1:38 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
How many manaa rocks would you play?


In certain decks I have just cero rocks because I dont want to ramp to nothing (my pheldagriff have zero rocks so is my markov)

I think that if I am not rmping "to soemthing" then why run ramp spells? , but now that I am "fixing" my Oloro and Yennet decks I am afraid if I didnt cut too many rocks (Oloro now has 4 rocks and yenet just 3)

Oloro has 39 lands and 3 mana rocks, mostly because I dont want to miss LD but I am not in a hurry to cast big spells.

While Yennet has a lot of big CMC spells I just play those for free with her ability and most of my normal spells are 1-3 cmc (cantrips, spot removal, counterspells) my boardwipes are 5cmc or 7, so I dont know if there is really a need for more ramp (I am thinking adding sol ring, mind stone,commander's sphere and chromatic lantern but I dont know what to cut)

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Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice for a Yennet deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-06 2:22 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
alexev wrote:
How many manaa rocks would you play?


Your manabase should reflect the mana needs of your deck. Generally speaking, the amount of rocks you play should be influenced most by the number of lands you play- IE, the more rocks you have, the fewer lands you can play.That said, it's a bit of a strange game to figure out that bellcurve since it's entirely impacted by your general's manacost, the manacosts of spells in your deck etc.

My Kefnet deck, for example only has 30 lands- but uses about 20 slots for cards like mana rocks, Armillary Sphere, and Thaumaturgic Compass which fix land-drops as opposed to straight out ramping- but ramping into missing landdrops makes ramping far less impactful.

My Ephara deck is at 36 land, and considerably fewer rocks because my rocks of choice are particularly easy to recur- and the deck functions on a type of incidental ramp that pushes me far passed 8 mana around turn 5 or 6 (utilizing Lotus Bloom, Lotus Pedal, Gilded Lotus, and a few 2-mana mana rocks.) The deck is, however built around Second Sunrise and features a fairly constant ability to rip through the list and build onto my mana pool each turn.

My Inkie and Selvala, Explorer Returned decks are both at 35 land- but contain very large amounts of cards dedicated to mana acceleration (dorks, rocks, Black Market, Growing Rites of Itlimoc etc.)

My Prime Speaker Zegana deck, on the otherhand is at a hearty 40 lands, foregoing manarocks entirely for dorks and larger scale ramp spells like Traverse the Outlands

In all of these builds, the goal is to suit the manabase for my expected mana needs as the game goes onward. If your deck has 50 lands, you don't need rocks or land-drop fixers in quite the same way as a deck with a lower landcount- but then you're limited to only opening up your mana pool by 1 additional source on each turn.

The usual metric is "half of your deck" should be or manage your manabase. I prefer to look for cards which let me ramp en passant, or fix my hand's need for land over regular rocks though, because I think it's generally stronger to not miss land drops than it is to ramp explosively. That effects not only how I build my manabases, but the sort of cards I look to as engines.

With Yennet particularly in mind, I would recommend starting at 37 land, and around 13 cards which behave like mana rocks, even if only 4 or 5 of them are mana rocks to begin with. A couple of bigger ways to generate large amounts of mana like Black Market or As Foretold will probably give you the kind of acceleration you need. You could opt into a tool like Arcane Melee.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice for a Yennet deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-06 3:50 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Mr Degradation wrote:
alexev wrote:
How many manaa rocks would you play?



With Yennet particularly in mind, I would recommend starting at 37 land, and around 13 cards which behave like mana rocks, even if only 4 or 5 of them are mana rocks to begin with. A couple of bigger ways to generate large amounts of mana like Black Market or As Foretold will probably give you the kind of acceleration you need. You could opt into a tool like Arcane Melee.


Thanks, thats are lot of changes for my deck, I mean, If I follow your suggestion I need to add 2 more lands and 10 mana-like rocks, I was haviong problems thinking in cutting 3 cards, I dont know were ti start to cut 10.

Wich cards would you cut?

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Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice for a Yennet deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-06 4:26 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
alexev wrote:
Wich cards would you cut?


I wouldn't start with cuts. I'd start with just a manabase, and a few of the powerful cards you're most excited to jam. So, starting with your pile, I'd begin with something like this...

Yennet, Cryptic Sovereign
37 Land

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Void Winnower
Approach of the Second Sun

What these cards have in common, is that they have relatively small weighted manacosts, but have demanding colorless mana costs. So, we have information about the kind of rocks/lands that we should be able to rely on (since fixing weighted costs isn't an issue.)

Immediately, Basalt Monolith and Thran Dynamo fit right in. They produce 1 more colorless than is necessary for Yennet the first time you play her- but push towards fixing those higher colorless mana costs.

Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Wayfarer's Bauble
Mind Stone
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Progress
Basalt Monolith
Worn Powerstone
Thran Dynamo

Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Burnished Hart
Solemn Simulacrum
Black Market

That template leaves you with 44 slots for the rest of your spells- which you can carve up into each camp of things you want to do. With this particular manabase, untapping Basalt, Vault and Thran Dynamo allows you accelerate particularly hard- so it would help to keep that in mind. I would encourage you to ofcourse try building your own model templates to tweak for the cards you find most appealing- or that feed whatever your favorite synergies are.

The reason for this approach is that manabases and coherent clusters of redundant cards are more or less just the foundation for the rest of your deck. Splicing pieces in and out of these slots too often can make a deck just not particularly functional (since a big part of EDH is knowing exactly which 99 cards you have access to for critical decision making as you go.) Often, just building a new foundation gives you better structure than (if you'll excuse the construction metaphor) dowel pinning new concrete into it.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice for a Yennet deck
AgePosted: 2019-May-06 5:15 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Mr Degradation wrote:
alexev wrote:
Wich cards would you cut?


I wouldn't start with cuts. I'd start with just a manabase, and a few of the powerful cards you're most excited to jam. So, starting with your pile, I'd begin with something like this...

Yennet, Cryptic Sovereign
37 Land

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Void Winnower
Approach of the Second Sun

What these cards have in common, is that they have relatively small weighted manacosts, but have demanding colorless mana costs. So, we have information about the kind of rocks/lands that we should be able to rely on (since fixing weighted costs isn't an issue.)

Immediately, Basalt Monolith and Thran Dynamo fit right in. They produce 1 more colorless than is necessary for Yennet the first time you play her- but push towards fixing those higher colorless mana costs.

Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Wayfarer's Bauble
Mind Stone
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Progress
Basalt Monolith
Worn Powerstone
Thran Dynamo

Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Burnished Hart
Solemn Simulacrum
Black Market

That template leaves you with 44 slots for the rest of your spells- which you can carve up into each camp of things you want to do. With this particular manabase, untapping Basalt, Vault and Thran Dynamo allows you accelerate particularly hard- so it would help to keep that in mind. I would encourage you to ofcourse try building your own model templates to tweak for the cards you find most appealing- or that feed whatever your favorite synergies are.

The reason for this approach is that manabases and coherent clusters of redundant cards are more or less just the foundation for the rest of your deck. Splicing pieces in and out of these slots too often can make a deck just not particularly functional (since a big part of EDH is knowing exactly which 99 cards you have access to for critical decision making as you go.) Often, just building a new foundation gives you better structure than (if you'll excuse the construction metaphor) dowel pinning new concrete into it.


Thanks for your input, it is always very welcomed

Today when I get home I will put my deck in the table and follow yout thoughts in tbhis template,

At first sight I think I can cut 2 counterspells (dispeland dawn charm are my candidates), I thibnk I can get rid of Pathrazer of ulamog too, ponder and preordain seems to be the weakest top manipulation effects in my list, Utter end is a card I love but maybe I can live without it, Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts is a card I like mostly because is a No mercy with legs and it doesnt seems too powerfull, so my opponents would not be feel very threatened, maybe Nezahal, Primal Tide will go. Also maybe Briberycan get out too.

That gives me 6 slots (if I dont cut these 2 dudes, if not It gives me 8 )I dont want to cut the extra turns efects because I want to be able to drop a bomb and usit at least once (Ulamog and extra turn) or setting up an entreat the angels for 8ww and having and extra turn, etc.

Maybe Mirage mirror is not that sweet, but sometimes being able to copy just whatever awesome stuff my opponents have is just cool and it is in the odd cmc

I have 9 boardwipes, that may seem too much but my meta is heavy creature based and by playing less creatures myself then I am a easy target, the single removal options have nevermore and darksteel mutation, that are ment to be for OP generals such as narset, mairsil or things that just are too hard to counter

EDIT: Right now my liost looks like this:

WIth only 3 spot removal I just feel so naked

1x Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign *CMDR*


#Lands
6x Island
4x Plains
3x Swamp
1x Sea of clouds
1x High market
1x Drowned catacomb
1x Watery grave
1x Hall of the bandit lord
1x Temple of deceit
1x Fetid pools
1x Temple of enlightenment
1x Halimar depths
1x Homeward path
1x Concealed courtyard
1xGodless shrine
1x Arcane sanctum
1x Temple of silence
1x Hallowed fountain
1x Polluted delta
1x Flood plain
1x Marsh Flats
1x Irrigated Farmland
1x Darkslick shores
1x Sunken hollow
1x Detection tower

#Mana rocks
1x Orzhov signet
1xAzorius signet
1x Dimir signet
1x Sol ring
1x Mind stone
1x Talisman of dominance
1x Talisman of progress
1x Commander's sphere
1x Chromatic lantern
1x Worn powerstone
1x Solemn simulacrum
1x Gilded lotus

#Equipment
1x Whispersilk cloak
1x Swiftfoot boots
1x Lightning greaves

#Top manipulation
1x Index
1x Sensei's divining top
1xSoothsaying
1x Scroll rack
1x Brainstorm
1x Aminatou, the fateshifter
1x Mystic speculation
1x Prognostic sphinx
1x dream cache
1x Thassa, god of the sea


#Card draw
1x Rhystic study
1x Phyrexian arena
1x Future sight

#Spot removal
1x Anguished unmaking
1x Path to exile
1x Swords to plowshares

#Extra turns
1x Temporal mastery
1x Time warp
1x Temporal trespass
1x Nexus of fate

#Counters
1x Swan song
1x Negate
1x Dovin's veto
1x Counterspell
1x disallow


#Value stuff
1x Mirage mirror
1x Crucible of world
1x Trinket mage
1x Mystical tutor
1x Temporal cascade

#Mass Removal
1x Plague wind
1x Fumigate
1x Merciless eviction
1x Rout
1x Cyclonic rift
1x In garruk's wake
1x Terminus
1x Aetherize
1x Evacuation


#Wincons
1x Bane of bala ged
1x Elesh Norn, grand cenobite
1x Teysa, envoy of ghosts
1x Artisan of kozilek
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Rune scarred demon
1x Ulamog, the infinite gyre
1x void winnower
1x Entreat the angels
1x Approach of the second sun

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Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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