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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 4:22 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
I'm not trying to win by scoop. I use Armageddon in the endgame to make it harder for my opponents to act during my final combat step. You guys seem to think that I'm trying to win by making my opponents not want to play anymore, which is not the case. I don't subject people to watching me play for several turns in a row after I cast Armageddon.

I understand that this is a commonplace attitude for people who play land destruction, but I have already explained that I'm not doing that. You can project whatever bad experiences that you've had onto me if it makes you feel better, but it won't make me feel bad about having a legitimate endgame strategy that lets me win with combat damage when the game goes favorably for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 5:30 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Panphage wrote:
I'm not trying to win by scoop. I use Armageddon in the endgame to make it harder for my opponents to act during my final combat step.


Ok, and a couple people (like Kong and CanadianCole) have already pointed out how this can go terribly awry. Any widely-played, instant-speed removal on Avacyn in response to Armageddon turns into a blowout.

On top of that, this list doesn't have a ton of ways to get to that endgame. The land count is super low, and the deck isn't using some of the staple land searching cards. It leans really hard on its artifact mana, but there's no way to prevent or recover from artifact destruction. Again, as Kong pointed out, there's almost no card draw. There's hardly any graveyard removal. The whole plan seems to be to interact as minimally as possible, and hope your opponents simply allow you to KO them with a giant 12-mana haymaker.

If this deck plays well in your group, and you and your friends have fun playing with/against it, that's cool. You don't need our approval to do your thing. But I think this deck is pretty flawed.

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 5:53 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I suggest we may want to review assuming the MLD goes off, without Avacyn being removed in response, and is used to immediately close out the game. That seems to be Panphage's lived experience from the time being, and I assume they'll redraft their plans if that ever stops working out. We'd give them better responses than trying to convince them not to play their MLD plan, it's working OK and healthily in their meta sounds like.

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 6:55 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Not to harp on about this, but why exactly do people think that I would cast Armageddon in a situation where someone could overload a Cyclonic Rift or hit Avacyn with a Swords to Plowshares or whatever else? It's a spell that I would play when whoever is left at the table is within kill range and doesn't have many ways of responding. I'm absolutely not casting it when I can't reliably end the game. The deck works fine in casual games, which is where I play it. Mono-white isn't going to win reliably against high-tier decks.

It is absolutely unreasonable to insult people because of your assumptions about a card game, regardless of your opinions or experiences. I plan to stay here for a while, so I hope that the people who were reactionary will consider trying to get to know me and the type of player that I am when we interact in the future.

I appreciate the people who have actually offered suggestions, I appreciate your feedback. I wanted to ask about a few things to see what people think.

Lands:

I run 34 lands and one of them doesn't make mana. I generally haven't had a hard time finding lands as long as I take a hand that has at least a couple, especially with Land Tax. I also run Tithe because it helps me grab a couple of lands on the spot for one mana. What other cards should I consider to help me out? I think that Endless Horizons is garbage because you lose whatever you set aside with it if someone removes it.

Card draw:

Vanquisher's Banner, Endless Atlas and Well of Lost Dreams look like solid options here. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know. I don't care for Inheritance because three mana to draw one card can be steep at the times that you might want something with a better return rate.

Creatures:

I'll probably find spots for Radiant, Archangel and Angelic Field Marshal in here. I like Reya Dawnbringer, but I find her to be overcosted. Anyone who has any other recommendations on creatures can let me know.

Cuts:

What would you take out first? Honestly, I was thinking of axing Silence because I don't try to combo so it doesn't do as much for me as it could sometimes.

It's not negotiable for Avacyn to be my commander. I like the card and I like the character. I made the deck because of those reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 7:59 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Panphage wrote:
Card draw:

The Immortal Sun might not be bad for you - it does a lot of stuff, including increasing card flow. Also Conqueror's Galleon I've found is amazing in white - it's not fantastic card draw (although it does do that), but the combination of abilities on the flip side is priceless for W and R decks.

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 9:21 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
I started writing a post on cuts and adds, and realized it was long enough to be its own deck http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19132. I don't think it's what you had in mind, but it might be worth a look.

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 10:14 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Kemev wrote:
I started writing a post on cuts and adds, and realized it was long enough to be its own deck http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19132. I don't think it's what you had in mind, but it might be worth a look.


It has some worthwhile ideas. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 11:05 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Suggested cuts:

Even with everything you've said, still not a fan Armageddon and Ravages of War in this deck. Based on your most recent description, they seem to be functioning as an overcosted Silence, which is a card I'll agree you should probably cut anyway. I think they'll be dead cards in your hand way too often to justify inclusion.

But regardless of whether you agree with me on those two, I think Worldslayer needs to go. It's waaay too slow in an already pretty slow deck, and unlike the other two is a lot harder to use simply to close out a won game.

I don't like the moxes or Mana Vault in this particular deck. They all tend to be good in 3 types of decks: ones that care about artifacts, ones which want to win quickly, or ones where the general is a card advantage engine. Your deck is none of the three, which makes them IMO just straight up worse than a basic land.

Runed Halo is a card I've never enjoyed. I personally consider Darksteel Mutation a straight upgrade.

Settle the Wreckage seems like a card that's not particularly good here either. Its power is muted in multiplayer, the drawback is pretty severe in the long games your deck wants to play, and I'm scratching my head trying to think of what makes it better than any other wrath, especially as you don't suffer the drawbacks of any others.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-30 2:25 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Even with everything you've said, still not a fan Armageddon and Ravages of War in this deck.


Yeah, I put it in the other thread I started, but I think the card the deck really wants is Catastrophe. It's fine as a midgame sweeper, and if you happen to land in an endgame position where the LD mode is useful, that's fine too.

+1 Catastrophe, +1 land (Arch of Orazca might be my first choice), -1 Armageddon, -1 Ravages of War

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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-31 1:02 am 

Joined: 2019-Mar-15 1:06 pm
Age: Wyvern
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Runed Halo is a card I've never enjoyed. I personally consider Darksteel Mutation a straight upgrade.


There's a case to be made for both cards. Darksteel Mutation only works on creatures and can't hit things that can't be targeted, but it gets rid of utility abilities that aren't nullified by protection. Runed Halo works on anything that targets you or deals damage. Both of them are different things. A very good example for when Runed Halo works is Sudden Spoiling, which is extremely popular in my meta and does very bad things to my deck. It also stops Helm of Obedience, Mindslaver and a bunch of other dumb cards that people show up with.

I'll take the rest of your advice under advisement, but I did want to point out the difference in functionality with these two cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Avacyn, Angel of Hope - Angel Tribal
AgePosted: 2019-May-31 1:16 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
For the record;

I never meant to insult you, and if you re-read my post...I hope it comes across more "cautionary" rather than judgmental. I even said "MLD isn't so bad if the game immediately ends right after".

I echo some of the other concerns with the deck being somewhat low on card draw and potentially mana. With Steelshapers, perhaps adding the new equipment Sword of the Animist for your land issue. With your flyers there should be someone to swing at, and you don't even have to do damage. For card-draw there is Infiltration Lens, Avarice Amulet, and Rogue's Gloves. Then you can also run Stoneforge Mystic.

Just some ideas.


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