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Ban Sol Ring
Yes 24%  24%  [ 10 ]
No 71%  71%  [ 30 ]
Don't Care 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 42
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 Post subject: Banning Sol Ring?
AgePosted: 2007-May-18 11:58 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
There's a suggestion we ban Top on the principal basis of "Seamless insertion into every deck". It's not really similar to anything else on the banned list and so there's significant opposition and counter argument.

However, Sol Ring is very similar to a number of other mana artifacts on the banned list already (5 moxes, Lotus to a lesser degree), and it's extremely hard to think of a deck that wouldn't play it, especially since cost to play a General rises (in colourless) each time it dies.

A friend and I frequently play a bit of 2-player EDH when there's no one else available. Sol Ring appearances here - when they can't be masked amongst what everyone else is doing or how there are much larger and more dangerous things to save the removal spells for - really bring out how abusive the tempo advatage is.

In short:
For:
It's functionally similar to other cards on the banned list already
Is only notable in a decklist for it's omission
Is way out of line on the tempo curve

Against
Far as I can tell, it's mainly legal 'cos it's quite cheap (white bordered), people are "used" to seeing it, and most Judges have a foil one or two.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-19 6:53 am 
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No way!!! Not now, not that I've acquired like 20 Judge foil ones for all my decks!

Seriously, the mana curve boost is exactly the kind of thing we want to get the big, splashy EDH effects. It's different from Moxen in that it actually costs something to play, and provides only colorless, severely limiting what it can do. And everyone knows that first Sol Ring means first advantage, which means first target :)

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AgePosted: 2007-May-19 7:02 pm 
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First target, eh? It's the first turn.. in edh! By the time any one can "target" you, you've probably already got a strategy to defend yourself.

Just for that, I say ban it. :roll:


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AgePosted: 2007-May-19 11:08 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
I can also see arguments from both sides here.

This is a multiplayer format, with also players at 40 life. Sol Ring is by no means necessary to create big, splashy effects in the format. There are considerably more balanced cards that could easily take its place in a deck. My Arcum Daggson deck has both a Sol Ring and Worn Powerstone. Worn Powerstone is a much poorer card, but still pretty damned good. If everyone replaced their Sol Rings with Worn Powerstones (or a similar, less broken mana accelerator), would they still be able to produce big, splashy effects? Yep.

The speed of a Sol Ring is also still powerful in the format. Speaking personally, a first turn Sol Ring is a second turn Sisay or second turn Arcum, and having both of those online so quickly could possibly end the game for a player or players before they can do anything. Perhaps one of these days a Sol Ring / Mortal Combat / Mind Stone (+ 3 land) draw will net me a turn 4-upkeep win with Iname. Suggesting that Sol Ring is limited due to it only making colorless mana is quite silly (sorry Sheldon!).

Now, conversely, the Moxes are (supposedly) banned purely because it provides a minor advantage to those who can afford them, not because of their power level. We don't want players feeling their decks are worse just because their opponents are playing moxes and they can't. Sol Ring is not difficult to obtain at all.

One should consider if "Automatic inclusion" in of itself is sufficient for a ban. Do we ban Nevinyrral's Disk as well? Most decks also include one, and the Disk certainly impacts player more heavily than Sol Ring.

Sheldon's joke aside, the fact that many players have already acquired Sol Rings (foil or not) for their decks is still noteworthy.

Lastly, one might also consider banning it to be more in the spirit of the format, in the interests of keeping decks and games as diverse as possible.

Tough call.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-21 9:23 am 
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It does fit seamlessly into every deck but it is easy to acquire (unlike moxen) and does help the game get into the action rather than wait the four or six turns for everyone to start doing stuff.

Yes, it does kinda act like a get out of jail free card for you general the second time (and on) you play them, but there are other things too that reduce costing casts. For example, set Cloud Key to creature or play any of the "familiars" creatures. Or play Edgewalker (reduced colored mana?! that's unpossible!).

With the number of cards that can create crazy mana for a minimal investment (i'm looking at you red) I don't think we should take it out on good ol trusty Sol Ring (which I don't actually own at this time... or have ever needed..)


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-22 11:16 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-23 3:11 pm
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I don't really see a need to ban Sol Ring in multiplayer EDH - which is what we're primarily concerned with. Yeah, it's a big boost in two player, but you'll have to work that out yourself.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-22 11:54 am 
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RobRoy wrote:
I don't really see a need to ban Sol Ring in multiplayer EDH - which is what we're primarily concerned with. Yeah, it's a big boost in two player, but you'll have to work that out yourself.


Two player EDH? I'm not following you... :shock:

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-22 12:04 pm 
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Sheldon wrote:
Two player EDH? I'm not following you... :shock:


First post in the thread, paragraph three, sentence one?

Or was this you being appalled at the level of sacrilege inherent in such an undertaking?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-22 12:15 pm 
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RobRoy wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Two player EDH? I'm not following you... :shock:


First post in the thread, paragraph three, sentence one?

Or was this you being appalled at the level of sacrilege inherent in such an undertaking?


The latter, Mos Def

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-22 1:09 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
IMO, EDH has (and should) avoid dictating game struture ... the fact that EDH rules/decks can be used to play 1-on-1, Chaos, Team, 2HG, Emperor or my personal favourite, Pentagram magic, is a major feature. It does raise the interesting issue though of whether cards should be banned to protect some of those structures when it's not neccisary to protect most of them.

My personal stance is no, most people don't design decks for just one format, the differential in power level between formats isn't enough to stop people from coping entirely.

1-on-1 may be the exception; Common practice and Sheldon's preferences aside, heads-up play does make for great 2 player games :) We could have an additional short list of cards you should take out/not include for 1-on-1 matchups, but I don't think it's neccisary. I can't think of any personally; Sol ring gives a huge boost, but is obtainable without setback to anyone who feels they're at a disadvantage, and things like Door to Nothingness are just part of the format. (Truth be told, much of the banned list is multi-player centric and isn't as broken in 2 player games... but I don't think we need to go the other way).

Tigtigger is one of the better multiplayer theorists in these parts... I'd be interested in his thoughts.

G

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-23 1:17 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Sol Ring is wicked. My Karn deck, without hyperbole, once went Sol Ring - Mana Vault - Thran Dynamo - Worn Powerstone on turn one. As Tig said, Iname can get a turn four win with Mortal Combat, thanks to Sol Ring. In agreement with TigTigger, the colourless mana thing is really inconsequential.

That said, if you look at the cards mentioned in these horror stories, Sol Ring played only a small role. I would have nearly the same amount of mana just the next turn (Mana Vault turn one, Dynamo - Powerstone turn two), and there's not much difference between 10 mana and 12 mana when it comes to turn three. As for Iname, Mortal Combat is a broken play no matter what turn it is, and with Mind Stone in the equation the win occurs only one turn later.

Sol Ring is a great enabler, and it makes the game become much more consistent for it's maker (essentially guaranteeing two additional land-drops, and putting them into play). This is where proper threat analysis comes into play. In a multiplayer format, without even mentioning the enhanced life totals, a quick start is not nearly as important as a solid late-game, where the Ring loses much of it's power.
One Sol Ring can't win you the mana race alone, when your enemies get 2-5 land drops to your one.

I enjoy head-to-head EDH very much, as well. In a duel, an early Sol Ring can be an insurmountable obstacle, when there aren't multiple opponents to keep the power in check. It will keep you two points ahead for the entire game. Even if both decks pack the card, the chances that both will draw it at a relevant time is low. That doesn't mean that the deck will win, though! The same restrictions that create the disparity reduce the effectiveness of the extra mana.

Sol Ring is broken in half in vintage and legacy because the decks have equally broken game plans. The power of the enablers scale directly with the power of the strategies, and highlander is naturally weak and chaotic despite the card pool. The reason, then, to ban Sol Ring, would be the seamless insertion into every deck, which it certainly possesses. If it's banned for that reason, then it will be the first of it's kind, but it may not be a bad thing, necessarily.

I voted 'no', in this case. Seamless insertion becomes a problem when the card shapes games around it, and becomes tedious. Sol Ring produces mana at a ridiculously efficient cost, but it still only produces mana, and is therefore reasonably unassuming. Unique, interesting things will continue to happen despite it's presence.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-23 7:36 am 
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Actually, I enjoyed very much 2-player EDH games with 100 life to start. Gis and I (in Atlanta, I think), played for HOURS. It's where we decided to ban Panoptic Mirror.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-May-29 1:58 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
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The difference between sol ring and top is that Sol Ring goes down the first time someone pops a mass clearer. Top never dies.

For this reason, I left it out of my latest deck (along will all the other artifact mana staples), so it's not an auto-include. With the life totals as they are, the two mana boost is not that impactful.


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 Post subject: Sol Ring
AgePosted: 2007-Jun-30 10:49 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jun-28 7:08 pm
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Sol Ring is better than a Mox. However, they are astronomically inexpensive considering their power level and playability in casual. So, there's basically two ways to go.

The first is to ban Sol Ring because of its power level. My group lost to turn 1 Sol Ring, Mindstone, Sisay up all the Kaldra parts, Akroma's Memorial, Multani! That was my first ever EDH game! It was turn 1 Sol Ring that ran completely away with the game. My #1 Demonic Tutor target on turn 2 in all my huge decks is Sol Ring because it's the best card I own.

The second is to allow a card as powerful as Sol Ring to exist because a) Everyone can afford just one and b) It helps all decks relatively equally so everyone benefits.

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Last edited by NorrYtt on 2007-Jul-01 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Jul-01 5:52 am 

Joined: 2007-Jul-01 5:47 am
Age: Hatchling
Why whould you ban an easy fixer thats fair for all plus theres 100 cards!!

like common combo turn 1 is not likely



this is silly


NxN :arrow:


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