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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 11:50 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Proposed Rule 903.4 The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card's mana cost or rules text other than alternate costs, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).

So, I've underlined the part that I added to this rule that would allow Bringers in non 5-colour decks.

There's only a handful of cards that this would affect:
  • The bringers: This is fine, it's the original intent of such a change.
  • Worldheart Phoenix: Also likely fine - it is an alternate cost even if you can only pay it from the graveyard.

Those are the ones that it would definitively affect. But what about the shards from Mirrodin? (Crystal Shard, Granite Shard, etc.) Those are alternate costs, even if they are alternate costs for activations. So perhaps we could adjust the wording from "other than alternate costs" to "other than alternate casting costs" - so that would stop any changes to cards such as the Mirrodin shards.

And, it's fairly simple change, wouldn't affect too many cards and would likely leave most people happy with the change. But that doesn't mean there isn't a downside to such a change. The problem with this change, is you've now made a simple rule more complex. And we've seen enough questions about colour identity here even when it's such a simple rule - making it more complex is likely to just going to confuse more people.

The beauty of it right now is you can generally sum it up with "Take all the mana symbols on the card - the colour identity of the card is all of those respective colours." Adding in any exceptions is just adding in new points of possible confusion/contention.

And I think that downside isn't worth the benefits we would gain from such a change. As such, it is likely only worth it as a local houserule.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 12:33 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Given how easy it is to house rule and the fact that Bringers aren't generally that great when you would pay 9 for them, it doesn't seem to require any action. Adding even a small number of words to 903 can potentially increase its perceived complexity a great deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 1:43 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
This is why I made the post I made. It wasn't fatalistic, it's just that every few months we have a discussion about tweaking the rule in some seemingly small way, that never ends up being worth it, and always ends up having more corner cases and confusion created. The color identity rule is elegant and intuitive as-is. It's very easy to understand and has no real corner cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 2:26 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-29 9:22 am
Age: Drake
Location: New Hampshire
Killane wrote:
The color identity rule is elegant and intuitive as-is.

I have to say I disagree with this. It is counter-initiative if you already have a understanding of one of the more fundamental parts of magic, color. The fact that it is closely related, and yet very different, from color causes all kinds of headaches for people familiar with magic but unfamiliar with the EDH variant.

If I had my druthers only a Commander would have a color identity, all other cards would simply have their color.

I feel this would streamline the commander rules and make them more intuitive with the part of the game most people learn to play first. But -clearly- this is an unwanted digression on my part from the topic at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 5:43 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
And, it's fairly simple change, wouldn't affect too many cards and would likely leave most people happy with the change.


All those people who struggle with color identity? They have no idea what an alternate cost is. Getting people to understand "look for mana symbols and color indicators anywhere on the card" is already difficult enough.

The goal of the core rules is not to make everything possible legal. It's to set out a reasonably simple set of rules. If you and your friends want to make exceptions for stuff you would find fun, more power to you, but making a half-dozen more cards legal isn't a reason we're going to mess with the core rules (which you acknowledge).


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 9:51 pm 

Joined: 2011-May-17 8:29 pm
Age: Drake
I'd just like to point out that it's rare for RC members to join in these arguments, possibly through just different priorities or more important things to do. Either way, they don't show up.

They devolve into pissing contests over who can quote more rules. Just ask the people you play with and clam up about it. I'm sick of reading this board and seeing the only active topics be things that can be house-ruled. Why is it so hard to talk to people? Argue amongst your playgroup, not among people who have no say in what your group says or allows. This is the same thing as the social contract argument, if you can all agree that Sundering Titan is too unfair, you can certainly come to some kind of conclusion about whether Flame Javelin is allowed in your Ninja Tribal deck. Just stop seeking validation from forumgoers.

No one REALLY wants to hear dissent, just agreement.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:11 pm 
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oscillating wrote:
I'd just like to point out that it's rare for RC members to join in these arguments, possibly through just different priorities or more important things to do. Either way, they don't show up.

Yo.

Also, papa_funk.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-01 10:32 pm 

Joined: 2011-May-17 8:29 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
Yo.

Also, papa_funk.


Ah, I apologize. I don't quite know all the moderators and RC members around these parts. I'm getting the hang of it, and I'm sorry.

However, the rest of my point stands.

I just don't think this is a point worth arguing.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 8:46 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
oscillating wrote:
I'd just like to point out that it's rare for RC members to join in these arguments, possibly through just different priorities or more important things to do. Either way, they don't show up.

They devolve into pissing contests over who can quote more rules. Just ask the people you play with and clam up about it. I'm sick of reading this board and seeing the only active topics be things that can be house-ruled. Why is it so hard to talk to people? Argue amongst your playgroup, not among people who have no say in what your group says or allows. This is the same thing as the social contract argument, if you can all agree that Sundering Titan is too unfair, you can certainly come to some kind of conclusion about whether Flame Javelin is allowed in your Ninja Tribal deck. Just stop seeking validation from forum goers.

No one REALLY wants to hear dissent, just agreement.


This.

Thank you for saying it.

Discussions on the board should, IMHO, be about things that might actually change and affect the community as a whole. The RC has been extremely clear on the color identity rules and not making them more complicated in order to provide exceptions to a few corner cases. It's a forgone conclusion that these things will not change.

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Last edited by Killane on 2012-Mar-02 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 8:52 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
I read every post on all the boards above the Strategy section (although sometimes I'll confess to TL;DR).

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 9:04 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-29 9:22 am
Age: Drake
Location: New Hampshire
While I am hesitant to believe that includes random chatter -regardless- that statement -and having multiple members weigh in- raises my respect for the rules council tremendously.

It's always good to listen and try to understand someone, even if you don't agree with them in the least.

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Last edited by 5ColorControl on 2012-Mar-02 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 9:08 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sheldon wrote:
I read every post on all the boards above the Strategy section (although sometimes I'll confess to TL;DR).

There's a few I wish you'd actually respond to...

oscillating wrote:
Why is it so hard to talk to people? Argue amongst your playgroup, not among people who have no say in what your group says or allows. This is the same thing as the social contract argument, if you can all agree that Sundering Titan is too unfair, you can certainly come to some kind of conclusion about whether Flame Javelin is allowed in your Ninja Tribal deck. Just stop seeking validation from forumgoers.

One reason these sorts of things keep cropping up is because not everyone plays EDH with a small group of friends, and the more people you add to a group, or the looser the association becomes, the harder it is to achieve a consensus. Especially if you play with more than one group, or you want to go play somewhere new, house rules are hard to port over, and then you have to change your deck all the time (which can be a pain) and constantly ask permission for things - as EDH has grown, a common sentiment, and one I happen to agree strongly with, is that standardization is good.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
oscillating wrote:
I'd just like to point out that it's rare for RC members to join in these arguments, possibly through just different priorities or more important things to do. Either way, they don't show up.

Yo.

Also, papa_funk.

I didn't know you were on the RC BKM. Good to know. Do you happen to be a judge as well?

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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 9:28 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
One reason these sorts of things keep cropping up is because not everyone plays EDH with a small group of friends, and the more people you add to a group, or the looser the association becomes, the harder it is to achieve a consensus. Especially if you play with more than one group, or you want to go play somewhere new, house rules are hard to port over, and then you have to change your deck all the time (which can be a pain) and constantly ask permission for things - as EDH has grown, a common sentiment, and one I happen to agree strongly with, is that standardization is good.


EDH is designed as a primarily social format. That pretty much translates into built for groups of friends, and that's our focus. While it's great that the format has caught fire and lots of people enjoy playing it as they like, we can't be all things to all people, and aren't interested in standardizing (which would have to standardize to a much more competitive format than we're interested in).

To give you an analogy: If you go and join a D&D group, do you complain if the GM of one group won't allow you to play psionics, making your halfling bard/assassin unplayable?


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 10:23 am 

Joined: 2011-May-17 8:29 pm
Age: Drake
@papa_funk

I think that last sentence sums up what I'm saying beautifully, in a much nicer way.


Also, I apologize retroactively to all RC members I may have stepped on the toes of. It certainly wasn't my intent to insult anyone, and I don't know if I even did that. I just had assumed there were more important things going on that a lil' ol' forum didn't demand a huge amount of attention from a group of judges. Thank you for proving me wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello; My name is Bringer of the _______ Dawn. Why you Hate?
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 10:33 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I didn't know you were on the RC BKM. Good to know. Do you happen to be a judge as well?

I was when I joined the RC, but I the only things that I've judged for the last few years are other people's opinions.

5ColorControl wrote:
While I am hesitant to believe that includes random chatter...

Random chatter is my fave. Judge all you want.

oscillating wrote:
Also, I apologize retroactively to all RC members I may have stepped on the toes of. It certainly wasn't my intent to insult anyone, and I don't know if I even did that. I just had assumed there were more important things going on that a lil' ol' forum didn't demand a huge amount of attention from a group of judges. Thank you for proving me wrong.

Don't even worry about it, friend.


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