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should it be banned
Poll ended at 2007-Jul-31 5:55 am
yes, its dumb 47%  47%  [ 8 ]
no, go crymore 53%  53%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 17
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 Post subject: BAN RECURING NIGHTMARE
AgePosted: 2007-Jul-01 5:55 am 

Joined: 2007-Jul-01 5:47 am
Age: Hatchling
this card is less then fun in EDH


Ie. kokusho
and the other dragons
not to mention it makes cards like symbiotic wurm and any huge leave play effects absolutly ricdiculous.


NxN :arrow:


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AgePosted: 2007-Jul-01 9:04 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
It is an awfully difficult card to deal with just because of how priority works, that I'll give you. Even split second cards won't touch it if the controller of Recurring Nightmare uses it correctly. But that is if you are thinking about it when it is in play and working.

In last week's game I had to use a Planar Portal activation end of turn to get a Void to nab it out of his hand during my turn (and smash some 3's on the board in collateral). At the time a Seer's Vision was out, and I was hoping he would just take it, but he didn't feel too threatened.

The week before, my Aura of Silence (the extra cost penalty part) really slowed things down for the same enchantment, certainly enough for the rest of us to keep up before too many of the deck's combos came online.
But there are other solutions, from Ground Seal to Presence of the Master to Humility to Leyline of the Void to Planar Void which stunt the card. Or a blue mage can counter it!

I know graveyard recursion is heavy in my group, so I always try to pack some foils to it.

My table always groans when we see it, but I don't think it is bannable. I run it in one of my decks.


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AgePosted: 2007-Jul-01 10:30 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-21 9:45 am
Age: Drake
Three syllables: Dis-en-chant

or

Krosan Grip

It's just like any other good card. We might as well ban every card someone beats us with if we ban RN.

This is EDH. I'm sure there are a gajillion cards that you haven't even thought of that takes care of RN.

(this post pain-stakingly pounded out on a Wii...) :)


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AgePosted: 2007-Jul-01 1:12 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
[quote="matthew"]Three syllables: Dis-en-chant

or

Krosan Grip

quote]

If you play Recurring Nightmare and activate it right away, an opponent never even gets a chance to play Krosan Grip, much less Disenchant, in response, as both the sacrifice and returning the enchantment to the hand are part of the cost of the activation, not the effect, and are performed prior to passing priority to any other player.
But yes, there are other solutions and I agree with matthew's overall point.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Jul-01 3:45 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Lately, when I cast Demonic Tutor, the two most common reasons for not finding Recurring Nightmare are
a) I need land.
b) I don't feel like winning the game right now.

The card has dominated many of our most recent games of EDH, mainly due to the fact that my brother has found a copy of his own. Now that multiple players have access to the enchantment, a game often comes down to a Nightmare race, leaving the game close and exciting for the two black players, but kicking everyone else off of the table.
If only one player has Recurring Nightmare, he almost always wins. During a three-team 2HG game last night, I came back to win, from 6 life, after my team-mate had quit the game, thanks solely and completely to Recurring Nightmare. True story.

There have been plenty of answers for the card printed in the past, of course. That is undeniable. However, it is still extremely hard to answer for most decks.

Recurring Nightmare's foils:
1) Counterspells
2) Graveyard removal
3) Pinpoint or mass hand destruction
4) Instant-speed sweeper followed by a disenchant
5) Pithing Needle

Counterspells are notoriously poor in big multiplayer games, as most people are aware. The blue mage will most often play with ~5 or so good ones in 100 card highlander, but I don't think any successful multiplayer deck can rely on having a counterspell at a key moment (not to mention that not everyone plays with islands). This same point can be made for discard effects.

Most of the good graveyard hosers are symmetrical (Ground Seal, Planar Void), so if you'd like to utilize the yard yourself, they're useless. Beyond that, in my opinion, they're quite narrow cards used to battle a particular metagame. If one enchantment forces me to put them into my decks, then that alone is indicitive of a game warping card.

As for point 4, Rout, Inferno and Starstorm are the only three relevant cards that I'm aware of.

The blue and black decks are the only ones that can reliably disrupt a player mid-Nightmare, and then only if they include a quantity of cards that they might otherwise have left out. Most devastating threats, including any of the permanents sitting on the Banned List, can be answered by a wide selection of cards that can be put into any deck.
When trying to find a way to stop this one, a lot of people would have to use Gatherer.

With all that said, it still might not be overpowered to the point of banning. It's not an unbound combo that wins instantly. Unless you're using Kokusho (which, let's face it, you probably are), you still need to find a way to force damage though.
Recurring Nightmare will define most of the games in which it appears, and the advantage it generates will propel it's owner far ahead in the game, but the advantage can be fought against successfully, if you're lucky and good.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Jul-02 12:33 am 

Joined: 2007-Jul-02 12:14 am
Age: Wyvern
personaly I argee that adding hate recuring nightmare into your deck is a good idea, but the fact is your playing with a deck that has a hundred cards(99 not including your general) and with only one copy of each card even with touters it is hard to draw an out to this card, and lately in my playgroup it has been constantly dominating every game it resolves


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 Post subject: ban
AgePosted: 2007-Jul-03 7:54 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jul-03 7:50 am
Age: Drake
Location: Belgium
we play like 3 times a week, and we decided to ban Kokusho locally, because we noticed that the card itself wins games too often...

the combination with recurring is even worse

we didn't ban this one but we see it influences the game a lot.

so i voted pro banning..
would like to see other experiences with Kokusho displayed.

Jay

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Jul-30 9:28 am 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
We played on the train home from Nationals yesterday, a couple of games. One I drew Recurring Nightmare, Palincron and Netherborn Phalanx, and that was basically it. The other game was much more interesting. I have at least 2 decks with it in, and it's really stupidly powerful. While I'd prefer to see Maze of Ith gone ahead of it, and I'm the primary abuser in my playgroup, I think we'd still have a better format without it.


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AgePosted: 2007-Jul-30 1:47 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
Being in Simon's playgroup, and seeing as I'm building a UWB deck and I was thinking of using Ertai the Corrupt instead of Dromar (argh! he bounces himself 60% of the time), Recurring Nightmare seems like a fun addition. Thanks, Simon.

I already play one in my Savra deck. Again, there are foils to the card, especially in multiplayer. See it - gang up on the abuser! In general, graveyard hosers are under appreciated in the format. Eternal Witness and Genesis are subtle, but have won plenty of games, as have Living Death at our table. Often times a Withered Wretch or a Stonecloaker has saved the day.

No ban I say.

Maze of Ith doesn't make mana - how can you ban it? It hasn't slowed down a game in forever.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Jul-31 10:32 am 
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Joined: 2007-May-20 9:03 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Recurring Nightmare is unquestionably a great card, and while it can take over games, it's really only been absurdly potent in dedicated graveyard decks, for which there are plenty of other answers in the format. Whenever a RN hits in our group, it usually just means several folks gang up on the player to get rid of it, as with any big threat.

I'd much sooner see Kokusho banned, as its obnoxious on its own and seems to be a prominent complaint about RN. I can deal with the occasional Palinchron/Phalanx/Recurring Nightmare loss...


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AgePosted: 2007-Aug-02 11:54 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-07 1:11 pm
Age: Drake
Recurring Nightmare is very abuseable.

Last time I saw that card played, I was playing one on one. I killed a Tidespout Tyrant, then he played his Zur general. I tried to Confiscate something, he spelljacked it. He attacked, found Recurring NIghtmare, got his Tyrant back, Confisacted my Karoo, and bounced two of my other lands, playing the Recurring Nightmare one other time that turn.

I was probably losing that game anyways, but Recurring Nightmare sure sped it up.

It obviously isn't as good without Zur as a general, but I could see it being powerful enough to be banned.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Aug-02 12:33 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jul-30 4:50 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: Yuba City, CA.
after playing games the last two nights with it in my deck yeah its power level is up there and short of others drawing a random counterspell it was difficult to deal with.


with kokusho keiga and or any come into or leave play effect it is pretty abusable.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Aug-07 8:00 pm 

Joined: 2006-Aug-01 8:14 pm
Age: Wyvern
Even without this card most people I know consider that large amounts of graveyard hate are needed as there are many cards that interact with it in powerful ways.


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