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 Post subject: Sick Angels
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 6:57 pm 

Joined: 2008-Oct-14 9:54 pm
Age: Dragon
I play Angel's grace

then Ad Nauseam

I keep flipping cards till i'm at -20

if i then tap City of Brass....

What is my life total?

More importantly why?

Angel's Grace

Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.)

You can't lose the game this turn and your opponents can't win the game this turn.

Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead.

Ad Nauseam

Reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost. You may repeat this process any number of times.




Thinking time
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the info for Angel's Grace on gatherer says the following

1* 25/09/2006 The last sentence applies only if your life total is being reduced by damage. Other effects or costs (such as "lose 1 life" or "pay 1 life") can reduce your life total below 1 as normal.

2* 25/09/2006 If an effect asks you to pay life, you can't pay more life than you have.

3* 25/09/2006 If your life total goes below 1, being dealt damage will not increase it back up to 1. The damage will simply have no effect.

4* 25/09/2006 If your life total goes below 1 or you get a tenth poison counter, you will lose the game when this effect wears off.

5* 25/09/2006 The last sentence is not a prevention effect, but it does stop unpreventable damage from reducing your life total below 1.

6* 25/09/2006 The last sentence doesn't change how much damage is dealt; it just changes how much life that damage makes you lose. An effect such as Spirit Link will see the full amount of damage being dealt.


point 3 tells me i'm not going to 1 but do i stay at -20? the card doesn't prevent damage it is a replacement effect . It seems non-sensical to reduce upwards i'll agree, but it can't just prevent the damage because that's not what the card does.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 7:53 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Compare to Worship:

Worship does not prevent damage. It causes some damage to be unable to lower your life total. So any damage rendered useless by Worship was still dealt and is counted by effects that track the amount of damage done to a player.

You take the damage from City of Brass and it doesn't lower your life total.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 8:13 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Feb-10 4:16 pm
Age: Wyvern
I might be wrong, but I think your life total would be one. Ad Nauseam puts you at -20, then you activate City of Brass. At this point, Angel's Grace sees that damage would put your life total to -21, which is less than 1. So it's replacement effect applies and puts your life total to 1. I think its how it works.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 8:40 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
That would be exactly how it works. You'd end the sequence at one life.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-19 9:13 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
Monnaldo wrote:
I might be wrong, but I think your life total would be one. Ad Nauseam puts you at -20, then you activate City of Brass. At this point, Angel's Grace sees that damage would put your life total to -21, which is less than 1. So it's replacement effect applies and puts your life total to 1. I think its how it works.
Frosnuts wrote:
3* 25/09/2006 If your life total goes below 1, being dealt damage will not increase it back up to 1. The damage will simply have no effect.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 9:19 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
[O] If your life total goes below 1, being dealt damage will not increase it back up to 1. The damage will simply have no effect.

Sheldon

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 10:51 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Something about replacement effects still trying to replace as much as possible? It is damage that will reduce the life total to less than 1, so the shield has to act on it, but we can't 'reduce to 1' if we are below 1 so we do as much as possible?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 6:51 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
It's not that it's preventing the damage... it's replacing it with an illegal action, which then doesn't happen.

Code:
CR419.5: If an event is prevented or replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.


There is a rule which says "If you take X damage, lose X life."

Angel's Grace (and Worship) generate a replacement effect which modifies that life loss event in some cases. It changes the event "lose X life" to "reduce your life total to 1."

As noted by the OP, you can't reduce your life total from -20 to 1 (And no, you can't reduce it by a negative number... it's algebraically acceptable, but magic has special rules about when negative numbers can be used and this isn't one of those situations). So the instruction to do so is now ignored entirely (as per CR419.5, above).

G

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 6:54 pm 

Joined: 2008-Oct-14 9:54 pm
Age: Dragon
Genomancer wrote:
It's not that it's preventing the damage... it's replacing it with an illegal action, which then doesn't happen.

Code:
CR419.5: If an event is prevented or replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.



That's what i was after... ty G


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