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 Post subject: "Going First"
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-13 10:59 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
An idea occurred to me, I figured I'd post it here for some discussion. How much of an advantage do you think going first is? Do you think the player with a low CC General typically has an advantage over players with high CC Generals?

If you are like me, you love to go first. Also, I tend to think cheaper CC Generals have an inherent advantage over expensive ones (they get out faster to combo/deal damage/etc).

Suppose... players go in order of their General's CC, with the highest CC going first (roll-offs for ties). This gives pretty much everyone an extra turn ahead of 1-2 CC Generals (Isamaru, Erayo, etc), and it makes playing high CC Generals have an advantage beyond getting it into play by turn 7 or whatever, they get to go first.

This could help deal with some of the issues involving degenerate Generals. I can't think of a situation where it would be easily abused by having a high CC General (maybe artifacts if you allowed text-box mana symbols?).

Thoughts?

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-13 11:16 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
In this format, I think going first is a huge advantage; most games are multiplayer, so you get first peek at mulligan choice, tempo lead in land drops AND the 8th card. Who doesn't want 3rd turn Jhoira, or 4th turn Multani?

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 Post subject: Re: "Going First"
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-14 12:00 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
RobPro wrote:
This could help deal with some of the issues involving degenerate Generals. I can't think of a situation where it would be easily abused by having a high CC General (maybe artifacts if you allowed text-box mana symbols?).

You mean Memnarch?

I think it would be pretty easy to run 5-color combo with either Reaper King or Progenitus for an auto "win the die roll," but I think most people who play EDH don't build 5-color combo. It's also worth noting that even a "real EDH" Reaper King deck would get to play first even though its General comes out on turn 4 or 5, so Garza Zol would probably feel pretty cheated.

Also, just to clarify, you do play with the multiplayer rule of "For any game with more than 2 people in it, the player who plays first also gets to draw on his or her first turn anyway," right?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-14 5:21 am 
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Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
Yeah, but I believe getting that land drop before anybody else can be fairly significant. And I mean several artifact Generals, including Memnarch and Bosh.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-15 4:17 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-19 10:00 pm
Age: Drake
I think that if I have a low CC general I've picked him for a reason. Likely that I can play him early. I don't think its particularly fair to say that because I want my deck to go fast, I should auto-lose the die roll. You could almost use the same logic to say that if someone is playing a "combo general" then they should skip their first card draw, because drawing cards is to good for combo decks.

Aggro-generals should have the same shot at going first as everyone else, IMO.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-15 8:24 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-11 8:03 am
Age: Wyvern
there is no reason not to go first in multi as you get the card draw and free mulligan. in a duel situation it might be more tricky, but as in all duels it comes down to the deck you are playing. i think in general though you should always want to go first.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-15 6:12 pm 
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Well, I thought it would give a little more flavor to the format as what General you pick could influence another area of play.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-17 1:40 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
why worry so much about fairness? seems like a waste of time to me. if you lose every time you dont go first then learn something about the pace of your deck, make some changes and play again. or just play more efficiently. or change your general if his CC is too fat. simply, figure it out.

also, how many people really only mulligan once and then draw less each subsequent mulligan? this is casual magic, mulligan your fucking heart out, who cares. the mulligan rule has always suckd ass in magic, it just siphons the fun straight out the game and can make for some very unballanced battles. and maybe yall dont realize this but the rule exists to speed up game play and keep people from "cheating" in sanctioned tournaments and events....this is casual magic, so it really shouldnt apply.

also, how many people really dont draw that 8th card before their turn starts?? hell, i bet a good portion of the people on this forum and elsewhere even look at their 9th or even (god forbid) their 10th card sometimes just to make sure that they can play a 1 or 2 land hand. ...i do, cuz it doesnt matter when youre playing a game that is supposed to be fun. so have fun and stop worrying about making up bullshit non-game-play-affecting rules that will surely overcomplicate the process you go thru before you actually start playing.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-17 4:35 pm 
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Location: Massachusetts
I've never drawn my 8th card or looked at my 9th before my turn started, and as EDH has its own mulligan rules I think they're relevant in this case. It's fun for me when there are more elements of strategy involved, regardless of what areas of play they effect.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-17 6:00 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
ppl do that? Are we playing Magic or Goldfishing?

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-17 7:24 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
TopazDragon wrote:
I think that if I have a low CC general I've picked him for a reason. Likely that I can play him early. I don't think its particularly fair to say that because I want my deck to go fast, I should auto-lose the die roll. You could almost use the same logic to say that if someone is playing a "combo general" then they should skip their first card draw, because drawing cards is to good for combo decks.

Aggro-generals should have the same shot at going first as everyone else, IMO.


Yup. In those respective decks I built, hitting a turn 3 Jhoira, a turn 4 Captain Sissay (even if she was fetching the 5th land drop) or suspending an Ith, High-Arcannist 2nd turn (yes, we allowed this) was huge. Land drops and tempo are still king in a gormat that starts around turn four-ish.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-17 11:02 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
In my area, even for multi, tempo is still a factor and getting your bounceland destroyed practically means you fall behind on tempo. In multi this doesn't occur too often because the player can recover and take revenge.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-18 5:51 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-02 2:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: England
Maybe we've read it wrong, but all players at our table draw 7 if it's their first mulligan.

...and all of them would be pissed if anyone took a peek at the 8th card before their turn.

On topic again, I always play first, given the choice. In multi there's just no reason not to. Duels are different and depend on the deck.

I definitely don't think you should go first based on cmc of general.
Some players might want to play certain colours, build accordingly, but only own one general of those colours. Players are already at a big enough disadvantage if they can't buy all the best cards so to hit them again before they've even drawn a card because the only UB they've got is skeleton ship rather than sygg is really unfair.

*off soapbox now*

[EDIT: I have just noticed that I've got skeleton ship and sygg round the wrong way in my example]


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