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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:43 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-11 9:29 pm
Age: Drake
Location: duluth
i didn't even know they were going to unban that stuff.. wierd but ok


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 2:16 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
the last set of bans was annoying, cuz i played with time vault, but i accepted it because time vault is indeed overpowered. but this is easily the dumbest, most shortsighted ban/unban update so far. pull your heads out of your asses and analyze things before you go and impose restrictions on the format. and why does sharuum get all the cuts? what the fuck is that? people, myself included, have invested a lot of time/money on their sharuum decks BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD AND FUN AS HELL TO PLAY. if you dont like losing to them, stop resorting to pussy tactics like banning and actually try to learn how to combat your opponent. at its core, thats what this game is all about, handling challenging situations.

this is exactly how Blizzard did things in regards to WoW. a bunch of nubs bitch on the forums about how overpowered other classes/abilities are so they nerf them cuz they think its balancing the game when all its doing is making it suck for the people who figured it out and dont need to complain because they get how to play the game.

if this is a casual format.. then why is the banned list in such retarded flux? pick the cards that are unfair, it should be obvious, and ban those. these bans should only include things that are directly counter to how this format functions as a game. not based on the notions of fun that the founders of EDH seem to think is shared by everyone. so back the hell off and let people play instead of imposing restrictions that will cause them to have to change their decks in order to continue playing anywhere outside of their immediate circle of friends. if any organization has power over a banned list, it should be DCI, not the biased moderators of a web forum. the founders of EDH do not own this format, the players do.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 2:46 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
draaaak wrote:
rant

Wow, take a minute and consider that the latest update might not be a personal attack against your favorite General / deck. Comparing this to WoW is only making it worse for you. Claiming ownership over the format while sh*t-talking the rules committee is even more awkward.

Losing Tinker and Metalworker doesn't ruin the Sharrum deck. Losing Metalworker removes one of the more explosive mana draws you had (and is the more questionable ban in my mind). Losing Tinker removes your (and everyone else's) most consistently broken tutor. The deck still works, you just have to actually CAST your Sculpting Steel.

Perspective, OK? Calm down, have a snack/smoke/whatever, type out another angry rant, wait 10 minutes, then trim it down to what you actually want to say and try again.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:07 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Aug-22 6:34 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Pennsylvania
draaaak wrote:
SNIP


This huge rant all because they banned Tinker and Metalworker? The deck is still ridiculously good, obviously every build ran Tinker, but I don't know anyone who actually plays Metalworker in their list, so you really only lost one card.

norbert88

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:09 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
draaaak wrote:
if any organization has power over a banned list, it should be DCI, not the biased moderators of a web forum. the founders of EDH do not own this format, the players do.


You understand that two of the members of the EDH rules committee are L5 Judges (and thereby voices of the DCI), right?

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:11 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
that is what i want to say, thats why i said it. i know its not personal, and sharuum isnt my fav, just my first, and therefore special. but the people in charge of these bans have clearly lost their perspective, so whats wrong with questioning or ranting when they make stupid decisions? none of us really have any control over the process of banning cards, so its perfectly justified to call more than just the bans but the banners themselves into question.

and i dont care what kind of judge you are. if you make dumb decisions through an abuse of power then you shouldnt be a judge at all. be objective with bans, not subjective.

btw, because of this announcement my group and i have decided to ignore future bans instated by this rules committee and will be running a more realistic list that does not include metalworker, tinker, balance, and other non-ban-worthy cards.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:34 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
Lol, now your Sharuum is ruined? Sharuum got crazy cards the last 2 sets, so you're not in the position to complain at all :P The only unbanning I "fear" is Crucible, other than that all actions seem fine to me.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:42 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
sharuum is from shards Poesjuh, which is from one of the last two sets, so basically sharuum is only possible because of the last two sets....

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 4:04 pm 

Joined: 2008-Oct-14 8:48 am
Age: Hatchling
Quote:
that is what i want to say, thats why i said it. i know its not personal, and sharuum isnt my fav, just my first, and therefore special. but the people in charge of these bans have clearly lost their perspective, so whats wrong with questioning or ranting when they make stupid decisions? none of us really have any control over the process of banning cards, so its perfectly justified to call more than just the bans but the banners themselves into question.

and i dont care what kind of judge you are. if you make dumb decisions through an abuse of power then you shouldnt be a judge at all. be objective with bans, not subjective.

btw, because of this announcement my group and i have decided to ignore future bans instated by this rules committee and will be running a more realistic list that does not include metalworker, tinker, balance, and other non-ban-worthy cards.


Yes, we should use the completely objective criteria that we have from our top 8 tournament data.

Seriously, how can you even begin to codify some sort of completely objective banning criteria for a format that is 100% based on local metagames?


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 4:08 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
Seriously, how can you even begin to codify some sort of completely objective banning criteria for a format that is 100% based on local metagames?

that is a great point... so why have a ban list at all in this kind of format?

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 4:10 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
I know, but there was plenty of nice stuff in Shards, and also a lot of nice stuff in Conflux.


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 Post subject: "unfun"
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 4:17 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-29 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
Banning because it is "unfun" is dumb. The term "unfun" is totally a subjective comment. If some one looses out right in a game from what they might call "degenerate combo", they will label it as "unfun" and want it banned. They will then post a thread which they will complain about the "unfuness" of certain cards. The best solution to this predicament is to become better deck designers and figure out the deck synergy with in the theme of your deck. It seems that rather then becoming better magic card players and doing the research that is necessary to become successful at this game, we would rather point or fingers and blame a card or "unfun" players. I am always willing to help people with deck designs if they are having problems with control decks or whatever, just don't ban cards which i could easily deal with. Metal worker whenever he came out into play he generally died before it even got back to the player.

This format is becoming very poplar and instead of banning cards to keep "funess" alive, let us play with them and have micro bannings with in the play group. Eventually this format will go pro because of its popularity, so let your concept stay fresh instead of castrating it with ban lists.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 5:28 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-15 9:42 am
Age: Drake
Location: Waterloo, ON
I'm not going to lie, I cried a little tear at the loss of Tinker.
At least 2 of my decks need to be seriously re-tooled.

I will say, this did seem to come out of nowhere.
There were no posts questioning Tinker, or any discussion that I had seen for ages about that card.
The same can be said for Metalworker.

Who's experience did these decisions come from??
I've only ever had fun with these cards legal.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 6:04 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
draaaak wrote:
Quote:
Seriously, how can you even begin to codify some sort of completely objective banning criteria for a format that is 100% based on local metagames?

that is a great point... so why have a ban list at all in this kind of format?


The purpose of the ban list is primarily to warn folks about certain cards that are generally unbalancing to what is supposed to be a fun format.

If you take EDH seriously as a competitive format, it's completely broken. Go have fun: it isn't a challenge, nobody cares that you can do it. Fixing that? Well, go take a look at the 5-color banned list, and it's not like they succeeded, or even touched the idea of a multiplayer format (which is even easier to break).

If your playgroup actually likes this type of game, feel free to ignore the banned list and have at it. If your only goal in Magic is winning uber alles, there are 20 or so other sanctioned formats just for you. However, for the purposes of the ban list, the goal is to support people gathering for casual events.

My personal philosophy is that you "win" at EDH when players are happy that they lost to you, or, if that doesn't work out, you're happy to have lost because cool things happened and you had a fun, interactive game. Watching someone go off with an Arcum deck, or lock down the whole board with Braids on turn 2 is not going to lead to a story that people will tell later (unlike the EDH game in Kyoto that featured Grip of Chaos, Confusion in the Ranks and Mycosynth Lattice. Roll d100), and isn't likely to get that person invited to play again.

This should make the Rofellos unbanning a little clearer: There are lots of fun decks that can be built around him. If you see Rofellos and all you can think about is "Umbral Mantle, Sword of the Paruns, Staff of Domination", then you were likely building the Braids deck already. Crucible/Fastbond/Stripmine is no worse than any other degeneracy already out there, and if your playgroup enjoys that sort of thing, it's not like any level of banning is going to stop you.

Thus, the cards on the ban list are primarily those that warp the metagame *with the assumption that the metagame isn't interested in being completely broken*. If you regard it that way, I think you'll find that the contents make a lot more sense. We'll nuke the occasional card that's part of a 2-card combo with no other use (LED), but most of it starts with the base assumption that all players are interested in having a "fun" game (where fun doesn't mean "I dominated my playgroup again") and goes from there.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 6:42 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
crucible of worlds is game warping in that every deck will want to/need to run it because you would be stupid not to. and theres another element to the crucible combo that people are forgetting: zuran orb, which removes the life loss penalty from fastbond (by providing infinite life) while also making stripmine capable of destroying every other land on the table.

hang on to your idea of winning since that works for you. but my style of game play is much more aggressive and competitive than that because of the level of game my play-group brings to the table. losing can be fun, sure, but usually never as much fun as winning, so whats wrong with trying to win as much as possible... correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure that every magic player that takes their game even remotely seriously is trying to win. even if your deck is about stalling and annoying and has only one or two very fragile win conditions built in, you still expect to win occassionally, otherwise the deck would likely be a complete bust and would end up getting pretty boring and ultimately deconstructed for the sake of a stronger deck.

with the exception of balance ive accepted the ban list so far as being relatively reasonable. but these new changes are not so i seriously think they should be abandoned..all of them. even the watch list cards. gifts ungiven??? please! only even slightly broken in a recursion deck, something that blue already sucks at on its own.

these new additions are clearly added for subjective, probably personal reasons (ie: people got butthurt when they lost to something they didnt have the foresight to prepare for), so they should be ignored. end of story.

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