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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 9:43 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-08 1:02 pm
Age: Drake
Tinker and Metal Worker banned, Damn, I was just about to build a sharuum deck with both of those in it. What crappy timing. Now I can understand the tinker banning, but metal worker, really?


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 3:30 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
tinker is gone! tinker is gone! this made me so happy to read! I agree (obviously) that it needed to go.

concerning sundering titan, I think it good but not bad enough to get the banned hammer. sure it's on the watch list because of the high appearance of 3c-5c decks in EDH but when you read decklists notice so many people run non-basics that often I find I end up blowing up one of my own lands because I'm the one playing a color that no one else is.

In 1v1 titan is tough but with tinker gone it's a lot harder to "cheat" it out there and many of the best 1v1 decks are one or two color (braids, erayo, mizzet.) I know this isn't a straight up justification as obviously people still play 3c, but hey, there's one in the whole deck and the whole game isn't going to hinge on this one play. sure it hurts but once again the loss of tinker means that cheating it out in the early game is harder (if they have it in hand) and the damaged board state can be repaired more easily in the mid and late game while more lands gives room for more responses to the 7/10.

In multiplayer it's even less good because, sure it destroys 8-10 lands over the course of one life but given the highlander format it isn't likely to be that much of a threat as blowing up 1-2 lands for several players won't set players back nearly as much. I think it's more likely to seriously annoy players and create a unified group effort to seek revenge. Capsize w/ buyback on a ravnica bounceland hurts a lot more.

Also consider the unbanning of crucible of worlds allowing for a chance to replay lands and recover from the damage if it is really that damaging.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:05 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-18 9:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Luna
Titan should really go. The goal of EDH is fun and you don't get more unfun than Titan. You can still Kiki-Jiki Titan.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:21 am 

Joined: 2007-Aug-09 7:38 pm
Age: Drake
As long as General damage exists, I’m fine with so-called infinite life. I’m also starting to think that I would rather have Crucible of Worlds rather than Sundering Titan, I don’t mind one land every turn, but three land (or even more) a turn is just too much. Oh and Tinker, I could take it or leave to be honest.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:23 am 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I really dislike Sundering Titan. Usually the titan player, barring a grudge, will try to kill lands evenly. That's fine, but the player who gets rid of it is the one who gets badly plowed by the Titan as the Titan leaves play. That's no fun at all.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:41 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Nah, usually when I play Titan is all directed at one person, every bit of it.
Normally because they did something to me in a previous game and need to be taught a lesson XD
Besides if you keep destroying all their land, they CAN'T retaliate :D

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 9:06 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
ruler2k2k2 wrote:
As long as General damage exists, I’m fine with so-called infinite life.


Evidently you only play generals that can deal 21 damage. Some people don't. What you're basically saying here is "I hate Zur decks so I think this change is good".

Tinker is broken, no denying it. I'm honestly amazed it wasn't banned already.

Titan probably needs to go, though it's not quite as degenerate as people think. Most decks that aren't mono will be running a high proportion of non-basic lands, and the decks that are mono will have plans to handle it. The unbanning of Crucible really helps, too - if I have a Crucible and you don't, odds are good you can't play Titan without hurting yourself more than me.

Metalworker... I'm not seeing the problem. Even Sharuum isn't worth it; turn 2 Rofellos, turn 3 Multani is a far greater problem in multiplayer.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 9:13 am 

Joined: 2007-Aug-09 7:38 pm
Age: Drake
Jedit wrote:
ruler2k2k2 wrote:
As long as General damage exists, I’m fine with so-called infinite life.


Evidently you only play generals that can deal 21 damage. Some people don't. What you're basically saying here is "I hate Zur decks so I think this change is good".


So you are telling me you don’t play your General. I’m not saying that infinite life is garbage, infinite anything is valuable; just don’t be surprised when you lose with infinite life.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 9:24 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
I would like to commend the EDH Rules team on what I feel are some excellent ban/unbanning decisions.

The unbannings are spectacular, and once the doubters playtest them I think they will come around.

The only question mark I see is Metalworker. I think his biggest abuse was with Staff of Domination, for a 2 card win-the-game combo that was playable in all decks with enough artifacts. Except with Rofellos coming back, Staff of Domination is a 1 card combo with a general. There are other 1 card + general combos out there (Curiosity + Niv-Mizzet, Buried Alive + Sedris), but the generals are much more expensive. On the other hand there isn't much tutoring in mono-green, its just a card to play in the Rofellos Deck that probably wins the game the turn you draw it. Was Staff of Domination considered as an alternative to Metalworker?

Still, I much rather they ban Metalworker than expensive but cool cards like Sundering Titan, Memnarch, and Possessed Portal.


draaaak wrote:
another element to the crucible combo that people are forgetting: zuran orb, which removes the life loss penalty from fastbond (by providing infinite life) while also making stripmine capable of destroying every other land on the table.
4 cards? Really? You're worried about a four card combo? It doesn't even end the game! The pieces aren't search-able by a general! Compare to Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest. Or Dreamhalls/Conflux. Tooth of Nail into Kikki-Jiki/Pestermite. Crucible/Fastbound/Zuron Orb/Strip Mine? Really?


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 9:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
As far as the rulings go, the only thing I have a real problem with is the Metalworker/Rofellos decisions.

If one should be banned they both should be banned. At least if the reason for banning Metalworker is to be believed at all. I have to admit I'm very sad to see Metalworker banned, but I understand that it can be very powerful... In specifically artifact decks. Rofellos is only good in mono green, or maybe 2 color decks. The problem is that Rofellos is always available and now that tinker is gone, Metalworker is a lot harder to find in a 99 card deck.

I really think both should be banned or neither one should.

I've gotten a turn 2 kill everyone at the table due to Metalworker/Staff of Domination. I put the combo in the deck because I figured it could be broken pretty easily, but I never thought I'd get the pieces turn 2. Granted Rofellos cant go off the same way turn 2, but turn 3 he can.

Is the problem that we have to worry about degenerate combo's or people that don't want to deal with weaknesses of their deck. EDH is a format about getting large effects to go off and to have fun. I think some people confuse that with having large casting cost spells and having fun. Maybe I'm the one that's confused here.

On a side note, I'd like to thank the rules committee for making this format and trying to be fair about bans. I may disagree with you on this one, but for the most part I think you guys have been right on.

Really I'm not worried about Rofellos being unbanned. He'll be back in the ban in 3 months after people move to breaking him.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk banned list
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 10:03 am 
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Joined: 2009-Feb-14 11:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Winfield, KS
Simon Jester wrote:
Are the Power 9 on there just because of their limited availibility?


the P9 are on there because of their outrageous costs, this format was meant to be casual, and those are intimidating to see in a decklist... it makes newer players feel like the format is to be top dog and competitive.

look at the banned list on the other forum. here's rule #2 to banning cards.

#2: A card's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone else in the game [The Power 9]

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 10:08 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
billyh wrote:
Was Staff of Domination considered as an alternative to Metalworker?


Yes, but getting back to my earlier point, the potential "fun" applications of SoD are reasonably high, and if that were the only issue, we'd prefer to ban the narrower card.

The bigger problem with Metalworker is its opening-hand impact. In a deck composed mostly of artifacts, it's relatively easy to tap him for an 8 mana boost on turn 3, bringing online late-game threats absurdly early and repeatably (it's possible to do this without Metalworker, but it requires an all-in mana-ramp draw, at which point you may not be holding threats).

Compare this to Rofellos who, absent additional help, isn't tapping for more than 3 mana at that point, assuming you're eschewing the nonbasics. That's a solid ramp, but not game-breaking, especially since you're limited to mono-G and artifact applications.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 10:50 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
papa_funk wrote:
Compare this to Rofellos who, absent additional help, isn't tapping for more than 3 mana at that point, assuming you're eschewing the nonbasics. That's a solid ramp, but not game-breaking, especially since you're limited to mono-G and artifact applications.


That would be a valid argument if Metalworker weren't limited to just artifact applications.

The genuinely important aspect, though, is that Rofellos is a general. A Metalworker combo can make 11 mana on turn 3 if it draws Metalworker and an enabler and four other artifacts, but any Rofellos deck is basically guaranteed to have 6 mana on turn 3 with no other draws required.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 11:20 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I will say that metal worker did equal omg dumb if i got it in my karn deck..

would hate to see what it would do in a shar / arcum deck


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 11:55 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Quote:
The bigger problem with Metalworker is its opening-hand impact. In a deck composed mostly of artifacts, it's relatively easy to tap him for an 8 mana boost on turn 3, bringing online late-game threats absurdly early and repeatably (it's possible to do this without Metalworker, but it requires an all-in mana-ramp draw, at which point you may not be holding threats).


Except that you need something to let him tap for mana on turn 3. Also the lasting impact that Rofellos has can't be understated. You need to keep artifacts in your hand with Metalworker. Lands in play don't hurt you for not playing them because they need to be in play to help. There are a ton of land search cards in green to ramp the potential mana/turn to play anything in your deck the turn you draw it.

I don't think either one is a problem really for EDH. Yes, they have some combos that can be rediculous, but they are creatures, and easy to get rid of. Graveyard hate stops the metalworker from being a problem later, but Rofellos needs to have a pinger in play consistently to stop him, (or other recurring creature removal.) If you were going to say either of them was a problem it's got to be the guy that you can always play early instead of the one that can only be played early if you draw him or a card that can search for him.


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