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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 1:40 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-08 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Northridge, CA
The new B/R moves seem pretty fair to me. I haven't really seen tinker do stupid things in my EDH playgroup, but I was kind of surprised it wasn't already on there. I also haven't seen anyone degenerately break metalworker, but I can see the applications. I have mixed feelings about crucible. For one, my Numot deck is definitely getting a Crucible since I use Armageddon, Devastation, Decree of A., etc. I can see crucible being the same level of annoying to play against similar to Loam, as others have said.

I think I mostly feel that when people look at the new B/R moves, they need to put personal opinions and pet cards aside. I doubt the judges banned anything because of a personal vendetta. Your feelings are hurt because you lost one of your favorite cards in a deck, same thing would happen if Survival was banned, it would seriously disrupt the consistency of my Vorosh deck. In the same way Tinker might be one of the major pieces of a deck, but it doesn't mean that it didn't deserve the banstick. The same thing happened when Brainstorm was restricted in Vintage, there was an outcry, but you got the feeling it was because people were losing their Brainstrorms, and not because it was inappropriate.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 2:44 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
PNineFTW wrote:
The new B/R moves seem pretty fair to me. I haven't really seen tinker do stupid things in my EDH playgroup, but I was kind of surprised it wasn't already on there. I also haven't seen anyone degenerately break metalworker, but I can see the applications.


All I see on these forums today are posts like this one. "I haven't seen either card do anything worth banning, but..." That makes me question the motivations behind these decisions.

PNineFTW wrote:
I have mixed feelings about crucible. For one, my Numot deck is definitely getting a Crucible since I use Armageddon, Devastation, Decree of A., etc. I can see crucible being the same level of annoying to play against similar to Loam, as others have said.


They may as well have nuked Titan. Land destruction got a big shot in the arm with this.

PNineFTW wrote:
I think I mostly feel that when people look at the new B/R moves, they need to put personal opinions and pet cards aside. I doubt the judges banned anything because of a personal vendetta.


I really wish I could believe this. I do. But the posts in here speak to the contrary. I mean no offense to Sheldon, but it's very clear that he severely dislikes combo. And again, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. But nuking Metalworker, while unbanning Rofellos as a general *screams* 'Someone has pet cards an vendettas!' May not be SHeldon...but it's hard not to see this any other way.

Again, I do understand Tinker. The bummer is that nailing Tinker effectively bans tons of other cards. Darksteel Forge is much worse. DSC is worse. It goes on like this. I really wish the powers that be would have hit the problem cards Tinker abuses, rather than Tinker itself.

I don't know...I understood Time Vault. This is the second banning in a row that specifically targets one type of deck, while opening the door on other, equally-abusable choices. It's very disappointing.

--->DJ


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 4:47 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
DJ Catchem wrote:
I really wish the powers that be would have hit the problem cards Tinker abuses, rather than Tinker itself.


Anyone who was playing when Necro was the big deck knows exactly how well that plan works. The DCI tried banning everything that was breaking Necro, they even banned Dark Ritual at one point to prevent turn 1 plays, but players just kept finding new ways to abuse it. In the end, Necro had to go.

It's the same here. You don't see it, but Tinker is the problem card. DSC at 11 mana is not a problem, nor is Titan at 8 mana. The problem is a card that lets you play them on turn 2.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 4:49 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-27 8:14 pm
Age: Drake
I have seen all sorts of reactions to the changes to the banned list, and lots of people getting their panties in such a twist over what ever was done. These responses have varied from well reasoned arguments (at best) to name calling and being a complete tool (at worst).

First, let me say I agree with the decisions.

Second, how many times do people have to be told that if you disagree, your local play group is fully capable of making a house rule to change it! I go by the list as decided on this site since it makes things easier if you are playing someone whom you haven't met before (less arguments) but there is nothing preventing your group from approving Tinker back in if you so desire.

The odds are very, very good that the people who made these decisions have a LOT more information then YOU and a lot more experience then you. They are making them based on the format as a whole, not as a personal vendetta against you. Get over it, and lets move on.

Thanks to all the higher ups who run this little operation, btw. Good job.


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 Post subject: Re: New list has some flaws
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:13 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
Oncita wrote:
Can anyone say wasteland/stripmine, zuran orb, and Fastbond. Also throw in glacial caverns for shits and giggles. This card will be almost mandatory for every deck, since now land destruction will be alot easier to build. I say GG.


I must admit, Zuran Orb/Fastbond does concern me a little, since when I played an all-out combo deck in type 1 highlander, it was one of my preferred routes to victory. But since Power Artifact/Grim Monolith is already legal, I guess I don't have to care too much. There are simply far too many viable "engines to try to eliminate them all. The one that really frightens me is buyback Walk the Aeons with extra land drops. If Time Stretch is on the watch list, Walk the Aeons should totally be, but it really isn't the problem card.

But seriously, those posting that LD is viable now, since one of the more anti-LD cards ever printed is legal again...hello..? Targetted LD just isn't very good in multiplayer formats, like targetted discard.


Last edited by Nomad on 2009-Mar-21 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:35 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
dude... in a multiplayer format, mass land kill while having a crucible in play is game over. in a dual, stripmine someone every turn.. that means that while you have crucible out, if your opponent doesnt, you will be able to destroy probably all their lands before they can get their own crucible even to their hand. thats a guaranteed lock every time. bullshit. land destruction will rape face now. i promise that land kill decks are going to dominate nationwide because of these banlist updates. uhhh... braids plus crucible... wtf.. this is going to ruin what the creators of this format think the flavor of the format is supposed to be. which makes this new list very surprisingly hypocritical. or should we just add another $10 card to every deck we play? last i checked, but having to spend more money to have fun sucks the dick.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:50 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-03 8:51 am
Age: Hatchling
Losing Karakas was bad enough, but now you're unbanning crucible?

Why? Do you want the format to suck?

And you can't say "oh well you can houserule!", because I can't houserule if i play somebody outside of my circle, and EDH is ALL 1v1 here.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 9:30 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You do know that they aren't going to alter the ban list to accommodate 1v1, right? (Discussion of that has happened already)

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 10:43 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-03 8:51 am
Age: Hatchling
Then they should clearly represent themselves as only offering rules for multiplayer or give two ban lists. The reason being is that 90% of all EDH (in the four metas that I've played it in) played is 1v1. Why ruin it for all of us?


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 1:21 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Simon Jester wrote:
Titan should really go. The goal of EDH is fun and you don't get more unfun than Titan. You can still Kiki-Jiki Titan.


I can think of a lot of things more unfun than titan. Mindslaver and losing to a combo deck. I guess that just comes down to your play group, though. I run a blink deck and purposefully choose not to run titan in it because it's unfun for the other players. If sundering titan really is as broken why isn't it in every decklist? It's 8 colorless mana for such a "broken effect."

I think someone said something about infi life and general damage. Don't forget we have Magister Sphinx as well, (which some people have protested when I stick them at 10 life and blink it, but whatever...)

Rofellos will be back I think. It should be both him AND metalworker gone. Fastbond seems to be the root of a lot of problems as well.

I think Crucible of worlds was unbanned on the basis of answerability. There are a lot of ways to kill it and the wasteland combo will only occur sometimes during which I'm sure most decks can come up with a naturalize effect and in multiplayer that should definitely happen before is really becomes a problem. Of course there's the nut draw of both of the pieces but sometimes that just happens.

@PNineFTW: well said!

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 3:37 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Volcanon wrote:
Then they should clearly represent themselves as only offering rules for multiplayer or give two ban lists. The reason being is that 90% of all EDH (in the four metas that I've played it in) played is 1v1. Why ruin it for all of us?


You're every EDH player? Wow.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 4:08 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
I think Crucible of worlds was unbanned on the basis of answerability. There are a lot of ways to kill it and the wasteland combo will only occur sometimes during which I'm sure most decks can come up with a naturalize effect and in multiplayer that should definitely happen before is really becomes a problem.

the exact same thing can be said for metal worker. and there are far more answers for metal worker than crucible considering that its a creature...so easy to kill. all permanent types have answers.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 4:49 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-04 6:05 pm
Age: Drake
From the official rules website

Quote:
Elder Dragon Highlander is a Magic: The Gathering variant which provides a way of encouraging casual, interactive games with a low barrier to entry while still requiring good deck building skills. It can be played 1-on-1 but is usually multiplayer...This page details the "official" rules common to most groups. Local groups often play with house rules (check the forum for inspiration), but this consensus version exists so that players know what to expect if they join an edh game outside their local play area. In particular, after-hours EDH games at Pro Tours and Grand Prix use these rules.


In other words: This is a casual, non-sanctioned format. Play it however you want. The people that have put serious time and effort into making it fun for their group, and expanding the playerbase, think these are the rules that best suit the format.

The official* rules** state that it's primarily multiplayer, so you, (or your friends/acquaintances/random street people you convinced to play with you,) need to decide if they want to use the official rules, or house rules, or some combination of the two. If you don't agree with your current playgroup, find other street people.

*They're not really official, insomuch as they tell you straight out that most groups play with some form of house rules, and that it's a non-sanctioned format

**They're more guidelines.

My opinion:
Metalworker: not really concerned about it either way.
Rofellos: people are going to put together decks for the sole purpose of showing he's broken, so they'll either fail, or succeed in getting him banned again, still not changing my decks any
Crucible of worlds: I don't think it's quick enough to need banning, the number of pieces needed to make it a serious problem mean it's dealt with relatively easy.
Tinker: Glad it's gone. A lot of that is based on my personal opinion and experience playing against it, but that's why it's my opinion


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 10:49 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
I think Rofellos' unbanning will only succeed in getting Fastbond banned.

Besides Staff of Domination, what good can boatloads of green mana do for you?

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 11:33 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
Well, if you just play Forests and Rofellos turn 1,2 and 3. You're garanteed to have 6 mana on turn 3, not that bad isn't it? And if you manage to play him turn 1 with for example Chrome Mox, you'll have 5 mana turn 2...

So it's just fast, very fast. But as you say, not more than that.


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