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 Post subject: Can we unban Riftsweeper and Karakas?
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-01 2:13 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-01 1:20 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: Connecticut, fairfield county
I can understand how they can be broken with their interactions with a general, but they also have legitimate uses with other cards. Can these cards, and cards with similar effects become unbanned, but errated so that they can't be used on a general?


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-01 2:22 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
they used to be unbanned and errata'ed for Generals but that became too confusing. The point is that it's too complicated for one to have to remember erratas for a specific format, and it's not just one or two cards that received errata.

I wouldn't mind seeing them unbanned but personally it's far easier to just remember them as banned rather than errata'ed.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-01 3:38 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-01 1:20 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: Connecticut, fairfield county
Doraemon wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing them unbanned but personally it's far easier to just remember them as banned rather than errata'ed.


I can understand that, but if I wanted an easy game, I wouldn't be playing magic.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-01 3:51 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
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Location: Rittman, OH USA
These decisions always come down to "If you don't like it, change it"
EDH is a malleable format, because house rules mean a lot for casual.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-01 5:38 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-01 1:20 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: Connecticut, fairfield county
yawg07 wrote:
These decisions always come down to "If you don't like it, change it"
EDH is a malleable format, because house rules mean a lot for casual.


That's great! Ok, Karakas and Riftsweeper are now officially unbanned!


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-02 9:20 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
yawg07 wrote:
These decisions always come down to "If you don't like it, change it"
EDH is a malleable format, because house rules mean a lot for casual.


i agree, banning them makes the format easy and accesible. Unbanning them in your playgroup makes the format more fun for you guys :)

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 Post subject: wow... really?
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-03 3:05 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
why not unban them? ..lets consider how much MTG information EDH players have already committed to memory... do you think they would not remember the specific re-rulings for a small handful of cards? also, since when has EDH been easy? for starters, its freakin magic, this game is ridingdongdiculously complicated. its also a format more suited to seasoned players who have generally a much larger knowledge base in regards to individual cards than others. so a few cards would have format specific wordings that all read the same: "this cards ability is cool, use it, but never on a general." omfg sooo hard to remember. WE HAVE TO REMEMBER A DAMN BANNED LIST AS IT IS. so move them to an EDH restricted list, big deal. its the same cards.. its not like these would be additions to a pre-existing list. and i bet the html to modify the website would take less than 5 minutes.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-03 5:14 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Not going to happen.

The loss of a couple of cards from the format is pretty trivial. The functional errata were cute but in the end not worthwhile. If it's a really big deal to you, ask your playgroup to consider a local house rule allowing them. I don't think your games will be significantly improved.

G


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 Post subject: Question
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-04 5:10 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-02 12:02 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Croatia,Zagreb
What about Pull from eternity? It is also a card that can mess things just like Riftsweeper. I'm playing it in my Teneb and returning it from graveyard with Eternal witness or Hag hedge mage and using it only for my non-general cards that are in RFG zone and it helps a lot,but somebody could use it for messing things. I hope that doesn't hapened because I did not see Pull anywhere in play,and it really helps a lot to a deck who depends on graveyard recursion.

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 Post subject: Re: Question
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-04 10:48 am 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
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Location: Portland, OR
Tarix wrote:
What about Pull from eternity? It is also a card that can mess things just like Riftsweeper. I'm playing it in my Teneb and returning it from graveyard with Eternal witness or Hag hedge mage and using it only for my non-general cards that are in RFG zone and it helps a lot,but somebody could use it for messing things. I hope that doesn't hapened because I did not see Pull anywhere in play,and it really helps a lot to a deck who depends on graveyard recursion.


If your general would be put into the graveyard from anywhere, you may remove it from the game instead. Anywhere includes, I believe, the RFG zone.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-04 11:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-02 12:02 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Croatia,Zagreb
Thanx Paperwarrior! I did not remember that. Well,now I am happy knowing that I have an answer for nongeneral cards in RFG zone. Pull always return them where I want them. And,how I said,I never try to use Pull on somebody else.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:00 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-23 8:02 am
Age: Hatchling
Karakas and riftsweeper really should be un banned. Sure we can change it per play group, but here is the issue, some play groups feel that the ban list here is the end all and dont care what any one individual defending a card for play (or ban) has to say. Because the "rules" say its banned.

I think that any play group that plays EDH knows the list pretty well and a few cards with specific errata are acceptable.

It really annoys me that super functional cards just get removed from the format because people are trying to "make it simple" if that were the game plan of wizards then 1000's of errated cards would have just been banned. But no, instead of Banning, they errated them. The loss of these cards is not trivial.

Lets think about this a bit more and the actual utility of cards like these that SHOULD see play.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:05 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Toby, Gavin, and I had significant discussion regarding Karakas before making the March 09 announcement. Karakas was format-defining when it had the errata for Generals. Having it as protection against other generals and legends was kind of okay. Being able to bounce your own General (such as Sharuum) is really scary. In the end, we decided against it.

If you want to do some testing by allowing Karakas in your own play group, please do and report the results back to us. I'd love to hear if it's as broken as we fear it would be or just another good card.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:06 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
TriAdX wrote:
I think that any play group that plays EDH knows the list pretty well and a few cards with specific errata are acceptable.

Yeah, but the format is ruled by judges and judges aren't keen on format-specific errata. That means you have to remember both card errata and format errata. Karakas already has card errata.

Making EDH like this makes it more like Magic. Walls have Defender because it's clunky to have special game rules for just one creature type. Do Walls need to be that special? Why should Riftsweeper and Karakas be that special?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 4:43 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Actually, Wizards' errata policy is a very good example of why it's NOT a good idea to change cards in this way. R&D goes to great length (and I mean seriously onerous lengths) to avoid changing the way a card works when they errata the card.

I believe R&D would like to be able to "fix" the functionality (ie: power level, interactions, loopholes) of cards post-release, but they don't. They change card text if the current wording doesn't make any sense, or doesn't fit modern rules syntax (e.g.: Triggered abilities always use "When" or "At", activated abilities always use a colon, instructions are always in the imperative voice)... but they always find a way to use modern templating to accomplish the same functionality. They never* change the functionality of the card precisely because they know it's SO important to a CCG that players can figure out what the card is supposed to do (generally) from reading it... even if a player can't figure out how it does it (technically).


Errata are for mistakes (that's what the word means), not changes. Trying to modify a bunch of cards, and there are a bunch that could be modified to "work better with EDH", gains very little and loses a lot to frustration/irritation/complexity. There are plenty of other cards to play, so there's no need, and format specific errata was a common complaint before we did away with them: new rules were fun; quirky twists were tolerable... a list of minutia was a turnoff.

So no, getting rid of errata on cards was one of the more bitter bullets we've had to bite, but now that we've done so it's clear that it was the riht choice. If your group doesn't want to allow a particular change as a house rule, maybe it's because they know it would be too powerful. Or maybe they're just sticklers for the rules... either way, you'll have to convince them.

G

* Almost never. They've done it maybe a dozen times over the 15 year history of magic... most of which they've since undone, and they are the exceptions which prove the importance of the rule.

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