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 Post subject: Discuss Unbanning Crucible
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:14 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As of today:

Crucible of Worlds is Unbanned

What impact does this have?

1) Green may now be the most powerful color in EDH. It has fastbond, land search effects, crucible, regrowth effects and turboland is now not just feasible but the single most effective lockdown strategy in EDH. Just splashing green for the turboland (takes like 15 cards?) will now insanely power boost your deck...no matter what deck it is...

2) You should now add Crucible to every deck that you have. It's a necessity for fetchlands, strip effects, combatting an opponent's crucible, etc. Unless you dedicate to suicide combo . . .

3) Crucible is now going to dominate the resource battle in EDH. It's a house. You protect your house.

Do you agree with this decision?

I feel it is giving green "it's due" but also...am disappointed that I will be putting in ANOTHER 5 staples into every deck I have. That's 5 less slots for variety. So my decks all lose out in variety and the format is perverted...I only had like 6 staples per deck so this is basically doubling the number of cards that are staples in EDH...at least from my perspective... From that perspective it was a terrible move, the format just got $hat on by the crucible that forced its way into everyones' decks. Now, mind you I already play a ton of artifact control, but I was getting accustomed to how to break infinites and stop combos pretty well...but this recursion piece is way different. I feel like I don't have a choice because my decks will be strictly weaker if I don't put the staples in...which I will... I just hate the early advantage that crucible brings and the way it distorts the format by allowing people to effectively hate other people out of the game without expending resources to do so (aside from land drops). When you're the target of an early crucible strip lock by someone with 2 land drops a turn...you'll hate it to...


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:36 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Wow.

I've posted on this board in agreement of this card being banned. I will let my playgroup know, I don't doubt that it will be played. I see this promoting cards that allow extra land drops, as warble pointed out.

I will happily replay Kor Haven and Maze of Ith from my graveyard in Loam-less decks. Actually, that might be why it was unbanned. Loam is legal.

If I think it makes the game go sideways then I will be on here asking for both Crucible and Loam to be banned. Unbanning Crucible creates some consistency in that regard and both cards need extra land effects drops to be 'broken'.

We will see I guess.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:44 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Aug-22 6:34 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Pennsylvania
I like the idea as long as people don't play Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, etc (which noone in our group does except for a few random ones)

It gives decks another way to fight against Sundering Titan shenanigans and it lets decks like my Crovax, Ascendant Hero deck use fetchlands repeatedly which is nice.

norbert88

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:53 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
norbert88 wrote:
I like the idea as long as people don't play Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, etc (which noone in our group does except for a few random ones)

I like the idea of noone playing Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Dust Bowl, Vesuva, etc as long as noone plays Kor Haven, Volrath's Stronghold, Maze of Ith, Prahv, Miren...

I just can't imagine EDH without Strip / Waste. But that's just my playgroup. Noone plays those to screw over a mana screwed player (save the occasionally awesome Karoo kill) but saves them for problem lands.

Crucible might not actually change that. Holding one player under Strip Mine lock is bad in a four player game. Seems much better in a duel though.

Both EDH games I played last night, two players (me and someone else) had Loam + Strip Mine active. Neither of us recurred Strip Mine to lock a player. We didn't want to screw ourselves out of land drops every turn because of Armageddon effects by a third player (damn you Realm Razor!).


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 Post subject: Re: Discuss Unbanning Crucible
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 1:56 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-29 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
warble wrote:
1) Green may now be the most powerful color in EDH. It has fastbond, land search effects, crucible, regrowth effects and turboland is now not just feasible but the single most effective lockdown strategy in EDH. Just splashing green for the turboland (takes like 15 cards?) will now insanely power boost your deck...no matter what deck it is...


I 100% agree with you in fact i just posted a thread about the joy i have seeing that a mono green deck is going to be even more OP. Turbo lands will have to be splashed in every deck and with the addition of Reffelo's good luck playing a mono green deck. I have always played green, case in point it is my favorite color. I am glad to finally see that green will get the dominance it deserves. The people running the ban list i believe made a horrible decision here. They basically nerfed all artifact decks like Sharruum and made turbo lands the new beast deck of the century. If they are trying to cut back on "degenerate" combos why give us crucible of worlds. Simply put this card is Over Powered and i am so happy they unbanned it.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 2:11 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-27 4:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Madison, WI
I will point people here, as this has both the largest discussion on the boards about Crucible. (as well as the detailed opinions I have on it :) )

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Generals: Merieke Ri Berit / Sharuum


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 Post subject: Re: Discuss Unbanning Crucible
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 6:16 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
warble wrote:
Crucible of Worlds is Unbanned


Oh Joyous Day! I've been calling for it to be unbanned for a long long time.

warble wrote:
1) Green may now be the most powerful color in EDH. It has fastbond, land search effects, crucible, regrowth effects and turboland is now not just feasible but the single most effective lockdown strategy in EDH. Just splashing green for the turboland (takes like 15 cards?) will now insanely power boost your deck...no matter what deck it is...

Blue is the best color in magic and EDH. Monoblack Braids is the best lockdown deck in EDH. It's slightly better with Crucible, but there are much better Braids enablers that don't cost you a land drop.
warble wrote:
2) You should now add Crucible to every deck that you have.

Crucible + Stripmine is absolutely awful in multiplayer magic. You can put them both in every deck if you want, but it's bad deckbuilding.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 9:33 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-18 9:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Luna
There's two reasons why it should be banned:

1. Crucible + Strip Mine
You kids didn't play when 4 strip mines were legal in Standard. It was unfun. Today I played against an EDH with KikJiki, and he copied Goblin Gardener. Ugh. Land destruction in EDH is unfun! Especially reperative.

2. Crucible + every fetch land, et al.
My expression during EDH is "Whose turn is it and why aren;t they done yet?" My agressive harassment of anyone who waits us wait while they search for a land has caused people to be more courteous about the subject.

If people are replaying and saccing fetch lands and their cousins, I think I could have a brain hemmorage waiting for them to do it.

UPDATE: I posted the above before I read about Crucible being unbanned. In the hours since I found out, my mind has been running wild thinking of Crucible based deck ideas.


Last edited by Simon Jester on 2009-Mar-21 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 10:55 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-13 2:01 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Texas
personally I am opposed to the unbanning of Crucible. For one reason because it makes land destruction alot less viable. Though I do have a strategy for dealing with Crucible and opposing lands, but it takes a while to complete.

Personally I think this is possibly one of the worst things that the team that bans and unbans cards could have done, and I have high hopes that Crucible will be banned again come the next banned list updates.

I also agree that this makes land.dec a highly viable and competitive strategy in EDH, which is something I was kind of hoping NOT to see.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:27 am 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So Life from the Loam isn't broken enough, they had to unban Crucible...

Well...let's see if I can get some Crucibles then...

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 Post subject: Re: Discuss Unbanning Crucible
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:59 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
billyh wrote:
warble wrote:
1) Green may now be the most powerful color in EDH. It has fastbond, land search effects, crucible, regrowth effects and turboland is now not just feasible but the single most effective lockdown strategy in EDH. Just splashing green for the turboland (takes like 15 cards?) will now insanely power boost your deck...no matter what deck it is...

Blue is the best color in magic and EDH. Monoblack Braids is the best lockdown deck in EDH. It's slightly better with Crucible, but there are much better Braids enablers that don't cost you a land drop.
warble wrote:
2) You should now add Crucible to every deck that you have.

Crucible + Stripmine is absolutely awful in multiplayer magic. You can put them both in every deck if you want, but it's bad deckbuilding.


Well, for (1) I am speaking of the effect that the color has on your deck. Specifically, the few green cards to their effect and then combining that with some efficient tutors means it's only a matter of "turn 2 or turn 3?" when you are going infinite. The casting costs are all a SINGLE green so it's an ideal splash color as opposed to blue which not only just lost tinker but also likes its colored mana (blue prefers to be a main color, not a splash color like green). So, perhaps more clearly stated is the following: The most powerful splash resource advantage strategy in EDH is a green splash with crucible. It's difficult to make broad statements and your points are very valid, I should have been more specific because allllllways those broad statements get refuted by specifics that are true...like blue is probably the most powerful main color...but a green turboland engine changes the game far more than any other 10-15 card engine when you're dealing with a tutor-heavy combo-esque deck.

As for Crucible Strip being awful in multiplayer...it's kind of subject to the number of counters and amount of interplay you have in the initial turns. For some playgroups it absolutely necessitates a change from the old land-go strategy for the first few turns and they'll have to cut a lot of fat from their decks to put the anti-crucible in their decks. For ALL playgroups it means you have to be wary of green on the initial turns and I totally think your playgroup must not have much interaction for you to think it's awful. Do you play the bouncelands, fetchlands, broken lands, land search, etc? I know it's a lot of $$$ we're talking about ($500 to $1,000 per deck, I know) but the statement that it's awful when we're talking about crucible giving you access to literally $1,000 of land that you didn't have easy access to earlier...that's kinda weird. It's a resource advantage card so...the better the resources...the better the card... Then again I have dedicated LD strats in half my decks so my perspective is skewed by the tons of LD decks that I encounter (they all be mine!) Perhaps crucible will get hated out effectively, which would be very karmic, but then the infinite combo with green totally goes "haha you did all that and I can win instantly with crucible and 1 green mana noob!" So...we shall see...I still agree that it can be playable but it's definitely a format-changer.

And from the old crucible thread I'll quote and somewhat agree with this:

tarnar wrote:
I only oppose it's unbanning because it's an auto-include in every deck


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 12:15 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
I think that Crucible's unbanning should warrant Braids getting on the watch list. On the other hand, with the new SB rule, Crucible is good anti-Braids tech.

Strip Mine+Crucible uses up your land drop to take out someone else's. If you're spending one land per turn in a multiplayer game, the other players will get waaaay ahead of you on resources. What the combo offers is a recurring answer to problem lands. Tired of your opponent's Maze of Ith? Waste it and play your Strip Mine again for the next issue to arise.

Crucible + fetches is strong, but all it does is thin your deck and fix your mana, and Land Tax isn't bannable.

Fastbond+Crucible+Strip Mine will put you really really far ahead, but it's not an auto-win. Unless you kill everyone really quickly, they can put you at a very low life total just with Fastbond. At least that's my hypothesis. We'll see how it turns out.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 10:22 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
I think you people are overreacting a tad. I would suggest making a janky Crucible/Strip Mine/combotrol deck and seeing how it does against an Erayo or Braids deck of the same power (only listing those two because I have a pretty good idea of what they can do, there's probably more). All it takes is one Mindslaver if someone has Crucible, Fastbond, and a Strip Effect in play to end that persons game.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-22 4:37 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I threw a crucible into my blue black enchantment silliness deck and wondered into mana vortex / crucible it was sorta funny


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-23 1:12 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-08 10:10 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Colorado
i do not support the unbanning of crucible of worlds, i believe it will deteriorate and generally do unfun things to the format. however i'm now adding fastbond, zuran orb and crucible to all of my green decks. come to think of it, looks like crucible will go in every single one of my decks, as they all have some number of fetch lands and a strip mine. this change is a huge boon to green (read: "blue decks with green")
i blame it all on the historically powerful and secretive "Crucible of Worlds Society" that can easily afford the best lobbyists that money can buy. but seriously, did a bunch of high end foil card dealers write you guys a check or something right after liquidating their tinkers and metalworkers?
grumble..


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