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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 12:22 am 
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odit wrote:
So basically play fastbond, do not release priority , win , else something goes on the stack, and blocks lanbd drops ..

Actually, all of the Crucible Fastbond combos can be disrupted. Although playing a land and tapping it for mana don't use the stack, any way off getting one of the combo lands (Barbarian Ring, Terramorphic Expanse) into your graveyard does use the stack.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 12:40 am 
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Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Zeke already touched on this: CoW may deal with lands, but it's also a graveyard-centric card. GY disruption tends to be good against graveyard-centric cards.

Aside from Crucible, what does Fastbond combo with? Rofellos? Horn of Greed?

draaaak, even with your "god hand," you're left with zero cards in hand an no offense or defense except for your gigantic life total. Because of the general damage rule, EDH has a built-in answer to infinite life. Zuran Orb+Crucible+Fastbond by no means makes your position unassailable.

Orb+Crucible+Fastbond+Barbarian Ring+threshold seems exactly like the kind of wacky combo EDH encourages. (P.S. You don't actually need another red source, since you can tap the Ring, sack it, play it and use your floating red to use the Ring's other ability)


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 5:54 am 
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It is not easy to disrupt though. You need to have those cards in play before someone starts trying to combo, and having a stifle in hand just doesn't cut it. You'd need someone with an actual counterspell ready to stop one of the pieces, and I thought you EDH people were against combos like that.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 7:02 am 
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RobPro wrote:
It is not easy to disrupt though. You need to have those cards in play before someone starts trying to combo, and having a stifle in hand just doesn't cut it. You'd need someone with an actual counterspell ready to stop one of the pieces, and I thought you EDH people were against combos like that.


You can also use Naturalize, Turn to Dust, Venser, Shred Memory, Orim's Thunder, Shatter, etc, etc, etc.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 7:42 am 
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paperwarrior wrote:
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Zeke already touched on this: CoW may deal with lands, but it's also a graveyard-centric card. GY disruption tends to be good against graveyard-centric cards.


Ban Ki-moon wrote:
RobPro wrote:
It is not easy to disrupt though. You need to have those cards in play before someone starts trying to combo


You can also use Naturalize, Turn to Dust, Venser, Shred Memory, Orim's Thunder, Shatter, etc, etc, etc.


The elephant in the room would be that this is the only way to win on turn 1 in EDH. If you were to go tournament-ize your deck and you were doing the asshole thing and going suicide combo then you'd probably shoot for this as your combo, among other combos (because you're 100 cards you probably want multiple methods to combo out in your deck, and there are plenty). Certainly if you were running green you'd be running this bad boy, and even more certainly you'd be going in with a full understanding that first searching for, then playing, and finally protecting your combo are the entire purpose of the deck. So you're doing the typical aggressor defender battle with EDH and you're stuck with the scenario that every player can possibly have green in their deck, and can possibly go off every turn(starting with turn 1) if they have 1 green mana available. Now...what does this game look like and is it what you want from EDH? I don't have green in all my decks, so I would have to rely on 4 and 5 color deck playgroups to let me know, but is this the typical scenario you like all game? Once you get mid and late-game I think we can pretty much guarantee the ability to assemble the combo for anyone with green, so it kind of turns into a crucible-fastbond fight where the first to get both in play iz winnar.

My vision has always been that the attack step would be highly relevant and the majority of the interplay should be controlling the board and attacking and defending. In fact, I wish infinite combos would go suck it (for EDH purposes). Until then I'm forced to play this fucking infinite shits because the alternative would be to be the only one at the table with the "weak ass green deck with no bite" But...I never agree that EDH should end in some cataclysmic event. You guys might think this is okey dokey, but in terms of my perspective every time it happens (unless I'm bored and just want the game to end) I go "motherfucking LAME." A 88/88 hamletback goliath with whispersilk is awesome, but I firmly believe that deck construction in EDH should eschew infinites. Yeah...it's just a playgroup style...but it totally dominates my opinions of the banlist as well. Fuck infinites, and fuck fastbond now that it can go infinite. Of course...my first alternative would be an either-or condition on fastbond and crucible...but nobody ever goes for that one...Same as niv and curios/ophid


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 Post subject: Scary questions need different answers...
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 8:00 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-02 2:50 pm
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Ban-Ki Moon,
I think the point Draaak and RobPro are trying to make is that there is a risk that fastbond, orb, etc. is harder to disrupt if it hits first turn than a creature based strategy.
Your suggestions all require mana to use.
I'd like to suggest Reverent silence as a better answer.
Or perhaps Abolish?

There's probably more though.

Personally I agree with many of the posts here that it's no worse than many other 2 or 3 card combos out there already.

Actually, no.
I think in a multiplayer game it's probably worse.
Strip + orb + Crucible is not infinite land destruction at instant speed so not a full lock as you can't blow everyone's land as they drop it on their turn.
You might lock one person out, but with 5 at the table you're going to struggle to stop all disenchants coming your way.

Now I've written this comment it's not so scary a combo at all actually.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 9:06 am 
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This will probably be my last post in this thread, unless someone says something other than 'but... but it goes infinite!'

Here's some math:

You have a 7% chance of any individual card being in your opening hand. You have a 0.02% chance of all three of Crucible, Fastbond and Zuran Orb to be there.

Since you need all four of the other cards in your hand to be land, we'll include that into the equation. Let's say that you're playing an ultra-conservative deck with 50 land, for the sake of argument. At this point, your chances of having your god hand drops to 0.0013%. You'd literally have to play 762 games of EDH to have a 1% chance to gain infinite life on turn one with this combo.

If you actually want to do something other than get a large life buffer, you'll need something like Strip Mine, a fetch land or whatever, which obviously makes it even worse. I don't know how many of those cards there actually are, so I'll leave that math up to you if you're curious.

If all you want to do is aggressively mulligan for the combo pieces and hope to draw into the necessary mana, you chances improve astronomically. If you're willing to mulligan down to three cards for the chance to have CoW+Fastbond+ZOrb, you have an astounding 0.042% chance to have all three available! Cross your fingers!

Edit:
warble wrote:
My vision has always been that the attack step would be highly relevant and the majority of the interplay should be controlling the board and attacking and defending. In fact, I wish infinite combos would go suck it (for EDH purposes).


For the record, I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. I personally don't have any infinite combos in any of my decks, and a combo finish is always the most anticlimactic way possible to end a game.

That said, a) I believe that it would be detrimental to EDH to make it so that combos are always bad and b) creating that environment would be impossible without a massive list of bans.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 10:37 am 
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I think you're missing the point. Add in about 10 cheap mana-wise tutors to your 3 combo pieces, where if you have any 3 of those 10 you're good for the combo. Also, you get a free 7 card mulligan as well as another 7 card mulligan if you drew into Serum Powder.

But my issue isn't that these combos can occur on turn 1. There are very few turn 1 game-winning combos I can think of without Tinker. My concern is a noninteractive combo that is nearly impossible to disrupt once it is online. Fastbond is the enabler for this combo, and really has no purpose in and of itself aside from enabling broken combos.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 12:49 pm 
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Also Fastbond with Future Sight/Magus of the Future is absolutely BONKERS.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 2:49 pm 

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Here is my challenge for those that think Crucible + Fastbond + Zuran Orb + Strip Mine is BROKEN!

1) Build the deck.
2) Post it to these boards.
3) Goldfish the deck in MWS. How many turns, on the average, before CFZoSm kills everyone's lands?
4) Post the results to the boards so they can be independently verified.

If you think its "BROKEN!", then you should show that it is more troubling than other existing unbanned combos, like Zur, Braids, Erayo, Squirrels, etc.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 3:47 pm 
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I'm going to agree with some others and say that Crucible has so many answers. I usually run some artifact removal anyways.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 5:31 pm 

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Tormod's Crypt is a 0 drop, you don't need a land in play to screw their graveyard

Fairie Macabre, removes up to 2 cards in a graveyard from the game.

2 answers, 0 mana. One doesn't even require that you've played a turn yet, although it does require being able to have black cards in your deck.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 6:29 pm 
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Though I'm sure it's been said before, Crucible allows for cards like Maze of Ith, Volrath's Stronghold, and Academy Ruins (etc, etc) to all require multiple answers. While there are tons of answers to them, they're almost exclusive 1-for-1s (Stone Rain) or totally 'dick move' cards (Armageddon), and Crucible requires you to have multiple answers to these cards+Crucible (either multiple Stone Rain varients, or Stone Rain + Graveyard hate, etc.) The problem with Crucible, in my eyes, isn't just that it makes the 1-for-1s worse, but also makes Global land destruction worse, meaning that people have more reason to run it instead of things like Strip Mine or Befoul (or in addition to, even). Other cards that make 1-for-1s worse (Kira, Great Glass Spinner, for example) aren't broken because they don't make global effects worse, and this is where Crucible crosses the line in my eyes.

Also, Fastbond + Zuran Orb/Lifegift + Crucible is kinda stupid good.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-25 11:18 pm 
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I think it's safe to assume that most people have turned this discussion into, "Is fastbond bannable?" rather than, "Should crucible have been unbanned?" Fair enough since they're directly related. I'll just say this again though. Crucible is not a problem card, and does more for the health of the format than the harm of it. I will continue to have this opinion of the card until another clear answer for mass land sweep is printed or Obliterate is banned.

Fastbond is a pure combo card, for sure. The fact that combos is kind of the point. Have you ever tried playing the card without combo pieces attached with it? It's a pretty bad card by itself.

So we've established that Fastbond is a combo card for combo decks. Does this make it degenerate? My answer is no. Here's why:

1) It's no harder to disrupt than any other combo because, while playing a land doesn't go on the stack, Fastbond's triggered ability that does damage to you does go on the stack. Therefore they can't just sit there and play lands without passing priority, and thus you can interupt it with enchantment removal or whatever. Even if it didn't trigger damage, you could still respond to the fetch/strip effect, or Horn of Greed's triggered ability. So while Fastbond definitely has the potential to suddenly go off, it does so from a position of just as much vulnerability to disruption as all the combos previously mentioned (Kiki-Pestermite, Niv-Curiosity, Squirel's Nest-Earthcraft).

2) It requires at least 2 cards to be broken. You some combination of the following: Crucible of Worlds, Horn of Greed, Future Sight/Magus of the Future, Life from the Loam, Trade Routes, Zuran Orb, Lifegift, Words of Worship, Glacial Chasm, Solitary Confinement, Fetchlands, and Strip Mine effects. Now you don't need all of them, but the fact that it needs multiple cards means it's less likely to happen. If you want to go off with the Fastbond, you at least need Crucible-Fastbond-Zuran orb, or Life from the Loam-Fastbond-Trade Routes-Words of Worship. So while the card is an enabler, there are bigger culprits for easily set up degenerate combos. A deck devoted to Fastbond combo won't be as consistent as a deck that just has the Fastbond combo in it.

I actually do have a deck that I dusted off when they unbanned Crucible. I'm basing my assumptions of Fastbond on decks like this. Here's the list:

General:
Phelddagrif

Draw:
Brainstorm
Opt
Ponder
Portent
Serum Visions
Compulsive Research
Deep Analysis
Gush
Sylvan Library
Pursuit of Knowledge
Thought Reflection

Tutors/Recursion:
Enlightened Tutor
Sterling Grove
Idyllic Tutor
Fabricate
Intuition
Gifts Ungiven
Planar Portal
Regrowth
Nostalgic Dreams
Recollect
Replenish

Business:
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Voidslime
Forbid
Cryptic Command
Thwart
Foil
Force of Will
Pact of Negation
Commandeer
Capsize
Solitary Confinement
Moat
Humility
Treachury
Oath of Druids
Simic Sky Swallower
Ancestor's Chosen
Blazing Archon
Krosan Reclamation
Gaea's Blessing

Combo:
Time Warp
Temporal Manipulation
Walk of Aeons
Beacon of Tommorows
Time Stretch
Sensei's Divining Top
Helm of Awakening
Future Sight
Zuran Orb
Trade Routes
Mirrari's Wake
Fastbond
Horn of Greed
Burgeoning
Life from the Loam
Crucible of Worlds

Land:
9 Island
5 Plains
6 Forest
3 Ravnica Karoos
3 Old Duals
3 Ravnica Duals
4 Onslaught Fetches
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Krosan Verge
Thawing Glaciers
Terrain Generator
Treva's Ruins
Mistveil Plains

My general opinion of playing Fastbond combo has been that, while you certainly win games with the Fastbond side of the deck, you can't get yourself locked into the assumption that it is your go-to for the combo of the deck. You look at what's in your hand, and build your game plan based on that. If it's going to be a mana ramp game, or you simply draw Mirrari's Wake, you can go Mirrari's Wake-Planar Portal-Beacon of Tommorows, and tutor for the missing pieces to fill out that combo. If it's going to be a Sensei's Divinging Top-Helm of Awakening-Future Sight game, find that.

I do not feel like my deck is an exception. You really can't build a "Fastbond deck". You have to have other ways to win in it too. This as opposed to Niv Mizzet decks that get to "start with Niv in their opening hand" and only have to find one card to combo out with him, or Zur the Enchanter decks, that have built in tutoring for their combo. Those are your culprit decks for degenerate combo, not a Fastbond deck, which is really nothing more than just another combo deck.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 7:47 am 
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trevor wrote:
So we've established that Fastbond is a combo card for combo decks. Does this make it degenerate? My answer is no. Here's why:

1) It's no harder to disrupt than any other combo

2) It requires at least 2 cards to be broken

My general opinion of playing Fastbond combo has been that, while you certainly win games with the Fastbond side of the deck, you can't get yourself locked into the assumption that it is your go-to for the combo of the deck. You look at what's in your hand, and build your game plan based on that.


You, sir, have the fundamentals of constructing and playing a combo deck down pat. My issue is that (1) is untrue, it's harder to disrupt because it comes online as fast as you get the card (1 green casting cost) and it gives you free mana when it comes online, immediately impacting the board position. Also, (2) significantly understates the advantage of the engine components in particular what crucible or fastbond can do by themselves. Because they are so damn synergistic they're combo-ing with half your deck and most of your LAND which is not something you consider with other combos. The aspect of a land-based combo is new, and it's a hard resource advantage as well as threatening infinite.

And your deck is a great example of how hard you can combo with fastbond without even going black and dedicating to combo. You tossed in a random ass beatdown oath engine (instead of tidespout/palinchron like normal combo peeps) and it still looks friggin' deadly as fuck. If I tuned out cards like the beatdown it'd be even more broken, and deadly, and even that aside I think you can probably combo out relatively quickly with your current list. Assuming you forgot mana vault/crypt/sol ring/etc I really think your deck could guarantee turn 3-4 infinites relatively easily. But, currently your list has tons of issues (like...where is forbidden orchard? And why even bother playing phel as your general, just go 5color if you intend to showcase combo) and I still think it's a great example so thanks for the list I totally hadn't even thought of using white instead of black for tutors. Oh yeah, I'd do the ghost quarter thing too(fetch #5/infinite strip#3) that's a standard part of the crucible fastbond combo thingy.


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