Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Nov-20 12:40 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: re: the ban list.
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:31 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-11 9:25 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: California
the ban list should simply read like this:

"we here at EDH central headquarters encourage a lively game that goes on past turn seven. as such we would like to encourage you to build your decks with an eye to longer games. further we feel that playing your spells is fun so we also encourage you to limit strategies that keep your opponents from playing the game. if your opponent does not adhere to these principles feel free to never play him again."

i hope that the repeated tweaking of the ban list with an eye to controlling play style does not stale the format to the point that my foil one of's become useless crap again.

rant over

(edited so as to include only the point that i now, with a cooler head, feel the need to communicate.)


Last edited by Jonas on 2009-Mar-22 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 3:53 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
that sounds about right.

_________________
...banned lists are for pussies


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: re: the ban list.
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 4:06 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jan-29 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
Jonas wrote:
unfun strategies. but will rather attempt to afford us a centralized control over what we feel the spirit of the format should be.

This term "unfun" is totally a subjective comment. If some one looses out right in a game from what they might call "degenerate combo", they will label it as "unfun" and want it banned. They will then post a thread which they will complain about the "unfuness" of certain cards. The best solution to this predicament is to become better deck designers and figure out the deck synergy with in the theme of your deck. It seems that rather then becoming better magic card players and doing the research that is necessary to become successful at this game, we would rather point or fingers and blame a card or "unfun" players. I am always willing to help people with deck designs if they are having problems with control decks or whatever, just don't ban cards which i could easily deal with. Metal worker whenever he came out into play he generally died before it even got back to the player.

This format is becoming very poplar and instead of banning cards to keep "funess" alive, let us play with them and have micro bannings with in the play group. Eventually this format will go pro because of its popularity, so let your concept stay fresh instead of castrating it with ban lists.

_________________
Net Decking . . . FTW!!!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-20 6:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
It seems like they banned two cards that were not a problem at all (Tinker and Metalworker) and reactivated a card that has completely degenerate capabilities (Crucible of Worlds).

I guess we can now look forward to stripmine/wasteland locks, as well as making it significantly harder to deal with Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy. I can deal with the latter if the former is handled. At least ban Fastbond to go along with the reactivation of Crucible of Worlds.

The explanation of why Tinker and Metalworker were banned doesn't make any sense to me. I've played against and with both cards, and have never made or heard any complaints.

First, Tinkering for a DSC or Mindslaver is hardly game-winning in multiplayer EDH, I truly defy you to present me with a legitimate situation where Tinker was an unsolvable card that was clearly in need of banning.

Second, Metalworker is only effective in a deck that runs a significant amount of artifacts. Similarly to Tinker, I can't think of a situation where this proves to be a truly degenerate card.

I really disapprove of these changes where it concerns the health of the format.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 6:09 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Aug-25 7:59 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Colorado
Cervid wrote:
It seems like they banned two cards that were not a problem at all (Tinker and Metalworker) and reactivated a card that has completely degenerate capabilities (Crucible of Worlds).

I guess we can now look forward to stripmine/wasteland locks, as well as making it significantly harder to deal with Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy. I can deal with the latter if the former is handled. At least ban Fastbond to go along with the reactivation of Crucible of Worlds.

The explanation of why Tinker and Metalworker were banned doesn't make any sense to me. I've played against and with both cards, and have never made or heard any complaints.

First, Tinkering for a DSC or Mindslaver is hardly game-winning in multiplayer EDH, I truly defy you to present me with a legitimate situation where Tinker was an unsolvable card that was clearly in need of banning.

Second, Metalworker is only effective in a deck that runs a significant amount of artifacts. Similarly to Tinker, I can't think of a situation where this proves to be a truly degenerate card.

I really disapprove of these changes where it concerns the health of the format.


I truly don't understand how you can say that Crucible has "degenerate capabilities" and while saying that Tinker does not.

You state that Tinker isn't game-winning in multiplayer and Wasteland lock somehow is? You don't win a game by crippling yourself and one other player. That tends to spell victory for someone else. Not to mention that Tinker+any artifact is easier to pull off than Crucible+Wasteland/Strip, which also falls to graveyard and artifact hate.

If Crucible becomes a problem in your area, change your build (or sideboard) against it. Crucible is far easier to hate out than Tinker anyway.

_________________
Code:
Physical Decks (outdated):
Wort (BR): Goblins     |  Azami: Wizards/Card Draw      |  Rosheen Meanderer: BIG Mana
Ghost Council: Control |  Horde of Notions: 5C control  |  Lady Evangela: Clerics
Multani: Green Fat     |  Maralen: Control/Combo        |  Momir Vig: Toolbox
Jhoira: Big Suspends   |  Sisay: Legends                |  Vendilion Clique: Creatureless
Savra: Sacrifices      |  Uril: Auras!                  |  Child of Alara: "Nuclear Baby"
Reaper King: Big CMC   |  Raksha: Equips!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 6:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
My take on the bannings:

Tinker: I think this is an extremely powerful card, and I used it a lot. I'm sad to see it go, but can understand why someone could see it as a problem. I personally have not had Tinker be rediculous even in my Sharuum deck.

Metalworker: I think if the rules committee thought that Sharuum decks were to powerful, I could see why someone would ban this. I do agree that unbanning of Rofellos is pretty rediculous with this banning. Being able to run this guy as a general is crazy. I'm going to get a hold of one so I can run it because he is crazy good. Play a 6 cc card on turn 3 with nothing but forests being played previously. The unbanning of Rofellos sends a very mixed signal about what is considered degenerate.

Rofellos unbanning: I think this would be an ok decision if the Metalworker banning hadn't happened. The reasoning was this banning was reactive without proof of being crazy. I suspect he'll be banned again soon because like Metalworker, he can generate crazy amounts of mana. Watch this:
1st turn: Forest
2nd turn: Forest, Rofellos
3rd turn: Forest, Skyshoud claim, Kodama's reach (6 forests in play)
4th turn: Staff of Domination, play your libraty until you get to goblin cannon, kill everyone.

All you need to do is get Staff of domination with more than 5 forests in play and you kill an entire table.

If you are worried about degenerate combo's Banning Metalworker and unbanning Rofellos isn't going to help.

Crucible of Worlds:
I think that this card is harmless by itself. But with fastbond, Braids, Stripmine, other things like that, this could be a crazy card. If I had a braids deck, I would put crucible in it so I could lock someone/everyone out.

Overall I'm not terribly happy with these bannings. I also think that these not being watched (I could be wrong) before makes the bannings harder to deal with.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:26 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You guys need to play more graveyard hate :wink:

But at the same time, I am surprised by the unbanning of Rofellos.

Also, I thought Crucible was safely locked into the ban list, so I got rid of mine O___o

_________________
Reading cards is tech.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 8:50 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Unbanning a card that is better in every conceivable way at doing what a card you are banning is being banned for doing is more than just unhelpful.

Quote:
Metalworker
Cards that easily and cheaply produce great deals of mana are inherently dangerous to the health of the format. Metalworker is clearly one of those cards, and had to go.

* Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, a card that is cheaper than Metalworker, produces mana of greater quality than Metalworker and potentially in greater quantities, is always in your starting hand if you use it as a general so you don't have to luck into drawing it, and is ten times harder to kill than Metalworker because it can be used as a general, is unbanned.

* Crucible of Worlds is unbanned. Now people can't shut down Rofellos with mass LD like they could shut Metalworker down with discard.



BTW, Ximenus, you've understated the case with your combo. try this:

Turn 1: Forest, Exploration, Forest, Concordant Crossroads.
Turn 2: Forest, Rofellos, Skyshroud Claim/Explosive Search/New Frontiers-2/Hunting Wilds/Primal Growth/Harrow (if you're holding a land) for two Forests.
Turn 3: Staff of Domination, win.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 9:58 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Feb-14 11:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Winfield, KS
i'm worried about the Big ST being on the watch list...
he's one of my favorites... i mean the point of artifact creatures with good abilities are to round out decks.... in a multiplayer game i doubt you will target only one person unless you have a personal vendetta or something, thats just bad politics... in a 2 player game, shooting three lands your opponent owns is a good thing, right? sure he's strong and draws alot of hate, but hardly ban-worthy... i just don't understand it. i mean would you ban erayo just because enough people complain?

_________________
Image

check out the Mighty Emergence combo.
Thraximundar, "lets paint the town red"
Teysa, Orzhov Scion (retired)
Sasaya (in the making)
Isamaru (in the making)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 1:07 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-04 1:02 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, FL
I don't even play Tinker and I feel this is banning is unwarranted.

Sundering titan is the problem, NOT tinker.

If players cant deal with an early Mindslaver or DSC then they probably can't deal with a lot of things.

_________________
RIP Academy & EDH - June '10


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 2:05 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ximenus wrote:
The unbanning of Rofellos sends a very mixed signal about what is considered degenerate.


Things that are not broken:
    - Mono-green decks


P.S. to Ximenus and Jedit: If you draw your god-hand and you win on turn three, that is very unimpressive.

_________________
Blog - Twitter


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 3:29 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
urielxvi wrote:
I don't even play Tinker and I feel this is banning is unwarranted.

Sundering titan is the problem, NOT tinker.

If players cant deal with an early Mindslaver or DSC then they probably can't deal with a lot of things.


Agree 100%. What does a Mindslaver really accomplish for you on turn 3-5? What deck doesn't have an answer to DSC, or especially Inkwell Leviathan (sup life totals of 40)? I've never once seen tinker played and thought, "Wow, that's insane, that card is degenerate and needs to go." Tinker being banned is a total joke, and it's not funny.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 4:56 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Cervid wrote:
What deck doesn't have an answer to DSC


Lets say we play a series of 10 games where I start with Tinker in hand and play DSC on turn 2. You can play whatever deck you like. Every game I win, you give me $5. Every game you win, I give you $25.

If I offered you that bet for real and you took it, I can assure you that I would have more money than I started with when we stopped playing.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 5:10 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Jedit wrote:
Cervid wrote:
What deck doesn't have an answer to DSC


Lets say we play a series of 10 games where I start with Tinker in hand and play DSC on turn 2. You can play whatever deck you like. Every game I win, you give me $5. Every game you win, I give you $25.

If I offered you that bet for real and you took it, I can assure you that I would have more money than I started with when we stopped playing.


I'm sorry, when did EDH become a primarily 1v1 format, and when did we start banning cards based on them being in your opening hand every game (and having the mana acceleration to cast it turn 2) in a singleton format?

There are plenty of ways to deal with DSC that are quite common in EDH decks. I have yet to win with, or be beaten by, a DSC in EDH, despite seeing many of them hit play.

Also, I would take your bet and leave with more money.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-21 6:20 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Cervid wrote:
I'm sorry, when did EDH become a primarily 1v1 format, and when did we start banning cards based on them being in your opening hand every game (and having the mana acceleration to cast it turn 2) in a singleton format?


We don't. It's a hypothetical to illustrate exactly how swingy Tinker is. Whatever trash you may talk, a turn 2 Colossus backed with countermagic will eliminate or at the very least severely weaken one or more players. Green has exactly two answers to it, and red has none at all.

But, that doesn't mean Colossus is broken. By turn 6 or 7, players have drawn more cards, laid more lands, had a chance to put together their defences. A Colossus played then is far more readily handled, and the nature of power politics leads to its controller being ganged up on if he appears too strong. It's the early deployment that's the problem, not the card.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: