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 Post subject: Is EDH Vintage or Legacy?
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-23 7:26 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
What i like about EDH is the budget vintage feel to it. I can play all the great cards i have picked up over the years Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor, Time Spiral, FoW, Yawgmoth's Will, Duals, but i dont need to buy the P9 to make my deck competitive. Vintage without the 'kill-you-before-you-even-start-your-turn'-feeling.

Even though i do not always agree with certain bannings, like my favorite card Recurring Nightmare, i understand the neccesity to keep the format in check and keep the games from becoming stale (RN was mostly the first target for Rector, Enlightend-/Vampiric-/Demonic Tutor, Liliana).

What i am worried about is this format becoming more of a legacy derivative (huge card pool, but no true power) than a vintage derivative (all cards minus the absolute insane)*.

Part of the reason i came to post this is the banning of Tinker and Gifts + Time Stretch being put on the watch list. I do however not wish to discus individual cards here, but wish to discus the format as a whole.

Is there a maximum to the number of cards that can be banned?

Right now we have 28 banned cards. Some of the cards are overpowered (P8), some overpowered in this format (Panoptic Mirror, Coalition Victory, Bargain), whilest others are more debatable due to possible 'legitimate use' (Hulk, Riftsweeper).

I don't think a hard limit would work in any format. However i do have a growing concern about the number of banned cards. Espcially the attainable ones (so say under €20-40). To me they take away from the power that makes EDH so much fun.

On a final note i would like to give props to the rules team for taking a good look at past bannings and re-evaluating them. You guys have a tough job and whatever you decide, people are gonna disagree with it. RESPECT!

*i know this comparision isnt completly correct since vintage mainly uses a restricted list, but i hope you understand the 'feeling' i mean to bring across.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-23 9:00 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-18 9:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Luna
It's not vintage or legacy, it's EDH, baby!

I like that its a format that I can use Sol Ring in. A man can never have enough Sol Rings.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-23 12:37 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Simon Jester wrote:
It's not vintage or legacy, it's EDH, baby!

I like that its a format that I can use Sol Ring in. A man can never have enough Sol Rings.


Amen.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-23 1:13 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
I like it because Mana Crypt actually has a use now!

Cards that should never be banned in this format despite the cost of money:

Mana Drain
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Duals
Library of Alexandria (some may disagree here and yes i know it is banned)
Bazaar of Baghdad
Time Twister

I'm sure there are others but those were just off the top of my head. They are classic cars and can only be played in this format without have to get a set of 4.


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 Post subject: Re: Is EDH Vintage or Legacy?
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-23 10:13 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
24x30cl wrote:
What i like about EDH is the budget vintage feel to it. ... Vintage without the 'kill-you-before-you-even-start-your-turn'-feeling.


Ditto.

Quote:
What i am worried about is this format becoming more of a legacy derivative (huge card pool, but no true power) than a vintage derivative (all cards minus the absolute insane)*


That's a reasonable concern; I don't think it's a pressing one but it's well articulated and not without basis. I'm not sure EDH will ever be one or the other... the problem with Vintage is that while it's a fascinating balance of power and complexity, it's lacking in interactivity. Legacy is better in that respect, but lacks the SuperPower! that makes Vintage exciting. EDH strives to have both the big-power feel of Vintage with the interactivity of slower formats... the cost comes in other things, of course.

If Vintage is a drag race and legacy is formula one... EDH is monster trucks.

Quote:
I do however not wish to discus individual cards here, but wish to discus the format as a whole.


Seems like a reasonable place to start. We're taken some steps to make the process more understandable, but for what it's worth... if someone's looking for "the rules", there's no codified system and I don't think there could be.

There's no maximum number of cards that could be banned, but it's certainly true that every card added comes at a cost -- many costs really. Every card can be fun to play; banning a card means it's no longer available to those who enjoy it and that's never something I'd take lightly myself. Moreover, the longer banned list increases the barrier to entry.

That said, if I had to sum up my philosophy it's that if banning cards (or adding rules) always takes something away from players, it should give more back. If taking one awesome* card away makes X awesome cards playable... there is always some value of X for which it's the right call.

Gavin


* For whichever definition of awesome you ascribe to

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 Post subject: Re: Is EDH Vintage or Legacy?
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-24 3:11 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
Genomancer wrote:
24x30cl wrote:
What i like about EDH is the budget vintage feel to it. ... Vintage without the 'kill-you-before-you-even-start-your-turn'-feeling.


Ditto.


Agree, very much agree!

Genomancer wrote:
24x30cl wrote:
What i am worried about is this format becoming more of a legacy derivative (huge card pool, but no true power) than a vintage derivative (all cards minus the absolute insane)*


That's a reasonable concern; I don't think it's a pressing one but it's well articulated and not without basis. I'm not sure EDH will ever be one or the other... the problem with Vintage is that while it's a fascinating balance of power and complexity, it's lacking in interactivity. Legacy is better in that respect, but lacks the SuperPower! that makes Vintage exciting. EDH strives to have both the big-power feel of Vintage with the interactivity of slower formats... the cost comes in other things, of course.

If Vintage is a drag race and legacy is formula one... EDH is monster trucks.


Lol, that one actually made me laugh ^^


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