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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-21 9:54 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
thaumaturge wrote:
Here's a random "dumb question" for you all:

Mana from Mishra's Toy Workshop can be used to cast Wingmate Roc...
A) if the "Raid" abililty condition has been met
B) if the "Raid" ability condition has NOT been met
C) both A & C
D) None of the above

Show your work.


EDIT: Actually I'm not sure the toyshop can cast ANY creature spells, even if they always make tokens. Because the creature spell just makes the creature, then it's a seperate ability that makes the tokens. So even something like Trostani's Summoner might not be valid to spend toyshop mana on... But it's a silver-border card so, who knows?


I agree with your (and JJackson's) reasoning. MTW's mana is only for "spells and abilities that put tokens on the battlefield". Neither the Trostani's Summoner spell or Wingmate Roc spell put tokens onto the battlefield, they put a non-token creature onto it. That the creature that enters the battlefield does is irrelevant, the restriction on the use of mana is on the spell or ability itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-22 6:48 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
thaumaturge wrote:
Mana from Mishra's Toy Workshop can be used to cast Wingmate Roc...
A) if the "Raid" ability condition has been met
B) if the "Raid" ability condition has NOT been met
C) both A & C
D) None of the above


According to Maro on Blogatog (the "official" silver bordered rules manager), the answer is A.
If spell or ability would directly result in tokens being generated, you can use the workshop mana for it. He uses Myr Battlefield (so EtB effects do work) and the ability of Acorn Catapult as examples. Note that you can't use the mana to cast the catapult, only activate it.
In another post, he said you could use the workshop mana to cast a proliferate spell that didn't otherwise generate a token only if you already controlled a token.

So it would seem that the workshop can look into the future and see what the spell would do.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-22 7:25 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I guess that is why they call it the future future league.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-22 8:04 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
thaumaturge wrote:
it's a silver-border card so
... it does whatever your group allows it to

It follows rules like any other card (silver bordered or not) unless it lets you break those rules. You can technically say any core-set black border card only does whatever your group allows it to, neither of those statements mean anything.

JJackson wrote:
I also would not allow it. "Spells or abilities that put tokens onto the battlefield" is not the same as "spells that make creatures that have a triggered ability that puts tokens onto the battlefield."

I understand and agree with your reasoning, but to go through and answer these in case anyone needed to know...

If you allow it for A, what if somebody has a Torpor Orb, Hushwing Gryff, or Humility?
Then no, because Roc would not generate a token in this case.

If an opponent has an Eyes of the Wisent down can you use the Toy Workshop mana to cast blue spells during their turn?
No, the triggered ability is a 'may' ability and doesn't.

Any noncreature spell if there is a Dovescape down?
Yes

Do you let it cast Nacatl War-Pride?
No, the resolution of War Pride makes no tokens.

To pay for a Mana Leak on something that makes tokens?
Mana Leak's ability doesn't make tokens.

Allowing it to work for things that will eventually trigger something that makes tokens is just a hot mess if you want to establish some sort of consistency.
It's not. And 'eventually' is only in the case of War Pride out of your examples. War pride does not make tokens because it resolves. Casting [c]Wingmate Roc[/card] makes a token as part of the entire effect of resolving that spell. I don't interpret that as 'eventually'.
Imagine it like this, you cast a spell and one adds anything else to the stack (cast spells and activate abilities). Triggered abilities trigger whether you want them to or not, so Wingmate Roc with Raid will make a token because you cast Wingmate Roc. (barring Torpor effects).

kaldare wrote:
Myr Battlefield
proliferate

Just to make a minor correction (aka nitpicking), you mean [c]Myr Battlesphere[/card] and Populate.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-22 9:35 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
kaldare wrote:
Myr Battlefield
proliferate

Just to make a minor correction (aka nitpicking), you mean [c]Myr Battlesphere[/card] and Populate.

Indeed I did. Thanks.

Sovarius wrote:
Any noncreature spell if there is a Dovescape down?
Yes

I don't think I agree with that one. The spell in question isn't directly generating the tokens, Dovescape is. Similarly, I don't think the presence of a Genesis Chamber allows any creature to be cast with the Toy mana. But only Maro can answer for sure... So I asked him. I'll let you know when/if he replies.

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My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-22 11:25 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
thaumaturge wrote:
Mana from Mishra's Toy Workshop can be used to cast Wingmate Roc...
A) if the "Raid" ability condition has been met
B) if the "Raid" ability condition has NOT been met
C) both A & C
D) None of the above


According to Maro on Blogatog (the "official" silver bordered rules manager), the answer is A.
If spell or ability would directly result in tokens being generated, you can use the workshop mana for it. He uses Myr Battlefield (so EtB effects do work) and the ability of Acorn Catapult as examples. Note that you can't use the mana to cast the catapult, only activate it.
In another post, he said you could use the workshop mana to cast a proliferate spell that didn't otherwise generate a token only if you already controlled a token.

So it would seem that the workshop can look into the future and see what the spell would do.

That's a lot of bullshit, but whatever. Spells that create tokens should be spells that create tokens upon resolution, eg Howl of the Night Pack. Abilities that create a tokens should be like Cellar Door. I'm pretty sure raid is a triggered ability, not a spell. If they spell doesn't create a token then you shouldn't be able to spend the mana on that spell.

If there is a chance of getting a token, like from Rally the Horde, you shouldn't be allowed to use the mana following the ruling on Equinox that says, "Equinox will not counter a spell that has a random chance of destroying a land."


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-23 3:17 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
thaumaturge wrote:
it's a silver-border card so
... it does whatever your group allows it to

It follows rules like any other card (silver bordered or not) unless it lets you break those rules. You can technically say any core-set black border card only does whatever your group allows it to, neither of those statements mean anything.

The big difference is that in silver-border land, cards often can't follow the rules, if you expect them to work (and Mishra's Toy Workshop seems to be one of them). R&D spends a lot of effort to make sure that each and every black-bordered card works correctly in a well-defined manner based on the contents of the comprehensive rulebook, but doesn't bother with that when it comes to un-cards. In this case, you actually have to make a house rule for Toy Workshop to do anything, because as far as the game is concerned there's no such thing as a spell or ability that puts tokens onto the battlefield. So, yeah, in this case it actually does do whatever your group allows it to.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-23 4:59 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
yaykaldare asked: Does the presence of a Dovescape allow the mana generated from Mishra's Toy Workshop to be spent on any noncreature spell? Also, my friend wants to know if Pez dispensers count as toys.

Absolutely and absolutely.


Maro says the Dovescape thing works.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-23 12:19 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
So, yeah, in this case it actually does do whatever your group allows it to.

I did specify that it has to be on the card, and what you are describing is on the card. Only because the card says "that would" does the game recognize what would and would not be a token generating spell. I think just because the card makes it's own rules doesn't mean it was ever intended for players to go ahead and additionally modify based on what they do or do not agree with.

Even if they break or negate or otherwise escape game rules, they still have a function, a designed purpose. To reiterate on an example from above, i do not think Toy Workshop was ever intended to let you cast Nacatl War-Pride because it can someday (in this case, a totally different step or more likely a different turn).

Yes, it is not tournament legal and you would have to ask to use a rule breaking card, therefore it does not break rules until your group agrees that you may play it. But when they do, i don't see why you can't reasonably interpret it's function like any other card. I answered a bunch of ruling questions on and didn't feel confused, and apparently was fairly accurate.

So you could house rule that Toy Workshop can cast War-Pride because it is capable of creating tokens, but that just means you house ruled a card to give it a modified purpose. You can house rule that it can't be used to cast Myr Battlesphere because Battlesphere spell is not creating tokens and mana wasn't spent on an ability, but that just means you house ruled a card to give it a modified purpose.
If your group lets you play silver-border cards and holiday promo cards and Toy Workshop specifically and don't make up any extra rules, simply playing it is as written, then you can only do what the card tells you. It essentially says "ok, now the game has to track which spells and abilities generate tokens".
Rocket-Powered Turno Slug only has super-haste because it's written on the card. By playing the card you basically agree to use it as intended (with it's broken-ass ability that makes no magic sense).

Which is not necessarily open to interpretation just because it's silver. There was still a design purpose.

Again, every card can do what your group allows it to should you decide things are open for interpretation.

But i guess the TL:DR is i very very much disagree, but i get what you are driving at.

@kaldare, you didn't ask about Genesis Chamber, but if 'Scape is a go i have to imagine this is too. My reasoning before was that the resolution of the entire spell including triggered abilities was counted for it's future-sighted rules, and Chamber doesn't break that line of reasoning. Saying yes to 'Scape kind of confirms that to me.
The significant difference is that you can interpret that without any additional interference after you cast the spell or activated the ability whether or not tokens well be generated.

For example, you can use Toy Workshop to cast Myr Battlesphere. We know that without a Torpor Orb effect that the token-generating ability will trigger.
However, we also know that you cannot use Toy Workshop to cast Sphere if there is an Orb on the battlefield, because we know that the ability won't trigger.
If the spell or triggered abilities cannot be determined to create tokens by this rule, then it can't be used.
So, you can't cast Green Sun's Zenith with Workshop mana to fetch out a Avenger of Zendikar (and i am referring to without Torpor effects on the field). The game and the card cannot know what creature will be picked, the resolution of GSZ is not determined to create a token.
But, if Dovescape is on the field, you know that naturally the tokens will be made when you cast GSZ. It is knowable, barring any tricks or spells that are additional interference. Therefore you can cast it with Workshop mana in this case, even if you also used mana from Boseiju, Who Shelters All and you choose to get a green creature that does not generate tokens, as the casting/resolution of GSZ will still put tokens into play.

If you have to do something extra to casting a spell or an ability in order for tokens to pop out beyond the natural resolution and triggers you don't have control of, then it's a no for Workshop.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-23 7:23 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It could be like how Hallow can be used on a creature with haste. The game will remember that that card will create tokens from when it was a spell like how Hallow keeps track of creatures dealing damage even after the card is a spell. The whole dovescape thing doesn't really make sense though... You could argue for using the mana to play dovescape, but dovescape is the one creating tokens through its triggered ability...


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-24 2:59 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
It could be like how Hallow can be used on a creature with haste. The game will remember that that card will create tokens from when it was a spell like how Hallow keeps track of creatures dealing damage even after the card is a spell. The whole dovescape thing doesn't really make sense though... You could argue for using the mana to play dovescape, but dovescape is the one creating tokens through its triggered ability...


Um no.

If I cast Craterhoof Behemoth and you Hallow it, nothing happens. The spell Behemoth does no damage.
The permanent does, when it is not a spell anymore (therefore not Hallowed).

These are two different game objects. The game does not 'remember' or recognize what you are suggesting.

And with Dovescape, I would not interpret that it's ok to use Workshop mana on it. Workshop says "that would" create a token. Dovescape doesn't necessarily create tokens, and doesn't during the normal, uninterrupted resolution of casting/resolving.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-25 7:38 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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Sovarius wrote:
Um no.

If I cast Craterhoof Behemoth and you Hallow it, nothing happens. The spell Behemoth does no damage.
The permanent does, when it is not a spell anymore (therefore not Hallowed).


You may want to brush up on your rules a bit more. MrCool is indeed correct.

CompRules wrote:
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
...
400.7b. Prevention effects that apply to damage from a permanent spell on the stack continue to apply to damage from the permanent that spell becomes.

400.7b directly agrees with MrCool and proves you wrong in this case :)


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-26 9:24 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Wow, that is insane and makes about the least sense possible.

Between that and Equinox rulings, Workshop is pretty interesting.

As far as Cellar Door and Rally the Horde, how are these different? Neither guarantee a token. I would rule neither of these can be done with Workshop mana.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-26 4:25 pm 
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Sovarius wrote:
Neither guarantee a token. I would rule neither of these can be done with Workshop mana.


It's about the intent. The spell COULD generate a token therefore using Workshop on it is legal, even if the actual resolution doesn't end up in a token being generated.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander FAQ and Dumb Question Station
AgePosted: 2014-Dec-29 4:44 pm 
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Not to ruin the thread, but...

Can I play Canal Dredger?

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