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 Post subject: Dreamhalls/Conflux
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 12:14 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
Should one of these cards be banned? They seem broken together...

It's easy to win if you resolve Dreamhalls and cast Conflux. Any Johnnie can imagine what happens next.

Compare
A) Dreamhalls/Conflux
vs.
B) Panoptic Mirror/Time Warp.

1) How fast does it win?
A) Wins the game the turn it is cast
B) Gives all opponents a turn to bash on you knowing you will win next turn

2) What about counterspells?
A) Turns all of your opponent's counterspells into Force's of Will
B) Does not

3) What about removal?
A) Can be somewhat disrupted by instant speed enchantment removal, albiet you still resolve Conflux and probably go off next turn
B) Is disrupted by any sorcery speed artifact removal.

4) What about general colors?
A) Forces you to play a 5 color general [edited]
B) Forces you to play blue, but you're probably playing at least black for tutors

5) What about hate?
A) Is hard to hate out (most people don't play lots of enchantment removal)
B) Is somewhat easier to hate out (Null Rod, more/better artifact removal)

6) How easy to assemble?
A) Has a large number of low mana cost tutors that can find it. Costs UU3. Additionally, if you have cards in hand, Intuition/Gifts is probably just as good as Conflux.
B) Even more tutors (Tinker, Transmute, etc.). Costs 5 one turn, 5 the next. Additionally, besides your tutors you can play 2-3 extra versions of Timewarp.


I can see that if you're playing in a large multiplayer game where many opponents have counterspells, and they tap out despite having those counterspells, that Panoptic Mirror/Timewarp is better. However, I think that Conflux/Dreamhalls is stronger in most EDH games.

What do you think?


Last edited by billyh on 2009-Feb-27 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 12:19 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
4) What about general colors?
A) Forces you to play green, blue, and probably at least black --> General needs to be 5C


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 2:06 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Dreamhalls is a strong card period.

And isn't banned yet.

Conflux is a strong tutor but I'd really rather have doomsday.

I'm not sure were you're playing but enchantment responce is fairly active in our play group.

.. There are quite a few enchantments / artifacts that "have" to be answered or the other person wins.

Just dropping dream halls is a hug liability in EDH , the fact that folks play with so many Phatty ... cards means that if you don't resolve a win the turn you cast it, you lose..


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 2:41 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
First of all, barring disruption you win the turn resolve Dreamhalls, with Conflux and one additional spell in hand. For example, suppose you get

All Sun's Dawn
Research // Development
Supply // Demand
Tendrils of Agony
Dromar Charm

Then you can draw your deck and make every player lose an arbitrary amount of life.

Now, suppose your opponents have instant speed enchantment removal. Then you could get 5 counterspell/regrowth effects, and go off on the next turn. Note that after casting Dreamhalls you can retain priority to resolve Conflux under Dreamhalls. Before Conflux resolves, your opponents can disenchant your Dreamhalls, but you get to know that your Dreamhalls will be destroyed before you choose your Conflux spells.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 3:08 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well...you can't ban conflux because that's just wrong and not in the spirit of EDH. And dream halls is totally symmetric so it accelerates the game meaning your conflux goes really fast, limiting the opportunity to respond to it. However...I'd give it a little time to see if it dominates that easily. If there is an issue, it's probably dream halls that will get the axe and not conflux. I wouldn't shed a tear for losing dream halls, there are plenty of other more balanced effects that do approximately the same thing.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 6:52 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jan-22 9:09 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Nebraska
I don't think it's degenerate enough...at least not yet. Yes, absolutely it's powerful. Here's my real question...Does Conflux really win the turn it's cast? Does Conflux really win the game?

In my experience the few times that I've seen someone actually resolve a Conflux it doesn't win them the game that turn. In fact Conflux the card itself cannot win the game. Did it make it near impossible for me to win after the Conflux was cast? Absolutely! But you know what that person was already winnning the game. So this actually makes me question if Conflux is really just a "win more" card. Something super flashy to do, even though victory is already in the bag.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-02 11:38 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
Stonepwny wrote:
I don't think it's degenerate enough...at least not yet. Yes, absolutely it's powerful. Here's my real question...Does Conflux really win the turn it's cast? Does Conflux really win the game?


Yes, you win the turn you cast Conflux. See my above post.

Stonepwny wrote:
In my experience the few times that I've seen someone actually resolve a Conflux it doesn't win them the game that turn.


Just because it's possible to not play optimally, doesn't mean we should base our banning restrictions on such non-optimal play/deckbuilding. It's possible to play Panoptic Mirror quite fairly, for example. It doesn't actually do the damage that wins the game, but it makes broken things possible.

Stonepwny wrote:
So this actually makes me question if Conflux is really just a "win more" card. Something super flashy to do, even though victory is already in the bag.


Suppose I have an optimal deck, with one colored card, and one special card in hand and I've just cast Dreamhalls with no other mana available. I claim that Conflux is the only such special card that guarantees a win this turn (barring disruption). Before Conflux was printed, Dreamhalls was good but no single other card guaranteed victory.

I find myself agreeing with Warble (which is very unusual). Dreamhalls is the card that needs the axe, although there is no hurry, as more experimentation needs to be done. I'll work on a desklist.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-02 11:46 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Stonepwny wrote:
I don't think it's degenerate enough...at least not yet. Yes, absolutely it's powerful. Here's my real question...Does Conflux really win the turn it's cast? Does Conflux really win the game?

It does, but at the cost of a largenumber of card slots to 'guarantee' it.

Scenario:

No graveyard.
Main phase, tap out for Dream Halls, Conflux and any coloured card in hand.
Conflux, discard the coloured card, hand is now empty. Opponents should consider playing an answer before you go get this:

W - Punish Ignorance (or Absorb)
U - Pact of Negation
B - Dromar's Charm (or Undermine)
R - Research // Development
G - Restock

Two counters for backup.

Restock, target Confux + the original coloured card, discard R&D.

Conflux, discard the original coloured card.

W - Supply // Demand
U - Teferi
B - anything B + G
R - anything U + R
G - All Sun's Dawn

Teferi, discarding Supply // Demand. Lock achieved.

All Sun's Dawn, discard B + G card. You should be able to get back the first coloured card plus Supply // Demand plus Research // Development (logically speaking anyway).

R+D puts Restock and All Sun's Dawn back in your deck, Conflux one back to your hand and keep getting more cards. Yay, you are teh winnar!

All of the cards named work well in a '5C Good Stuff' style of EDH deck anyway. Yes, you need a lot of slots to make it work but most of those choices aren't bad EDH cards to begin with.

The above can be tweaked to play around a lot of things (eg Tormod's Crypt).

Dream Halls probably should go.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-02 2:41 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Portland, OR
The combo seems really strong, but the fact that it negates the mana cost of all your opponents' answers balances it to some degree. In any event, I think we need more actual experience playing with/against it before we demand the banhammer.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-02 3:01 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
really sucks if the answer is ...dream halls conflux

opponent timestop..


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-02 3:04 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
paperwarrior wrote:
The combo seems really strong, but the fact that it negates the mana cost of all your opponents' answers balances it to some degree. In any event, I think we need more actual experience playing with/against it before we demand the banhammer.

The symmetry makes it dangerous. Ideally you want to lock the game up with Teferi / Dosan / City of Solitude before throwing Dream Halls down but that's not nearly as easy as just getting Halls / Conflux.

Thing is though, besides normal blue shenanigans (counter spells) what cards are you going to use to disrupt this combo? Instant speed enchantment removal isn't very high on my list of things to include in an EDH deck.

Dismantling Blow, sure. Naturalize? Probably not. Demystify? No thanks.

Graveyard hate might do it but the best options (T.Crypt, Relic of Prog. Withered Wretch) have to be on the table before Dream Halls touches down. The Conflux player can play around them. Who plays instant speed graveyard hate?

The symmetry is there, yes, but it would appear that blue is the colour with the best/only chance of keeping the symmetry actually symmetrical.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-02 5:05 pm 

Joined: 2008-Oct-14 9:54 pm
Age: Dragon
The first 5 cards in any green deck I even consider thinking about brainstorming ideas for

Genisis
Eternal Witness
Life from the Loam
Krosan Grip
Deglamer


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-02 6:16 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-24 3:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: UCLA
Frosnuts wrote:
The first 5 cards in any green deck...
Krosan Grip
Deglamer


If your opponent happens to have instant speed enchantment removal in hand, you still resolve Conflux, and you know Dreamhalls will be going away (see previous post)

In this case, you can get
Regrowth
Glittering Wish
Force of Will (or Dreamhalls, if Deglamor)
Dromar's Charm
Recoup

And go off next turn. Yes, your combined opponents might kill you before your next turn. But you still get to resolve Conflux. Compare this to Timewarp/Panoptic Mirror, where after sorcery speed artifact destruction, you're back to square one.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-03 9:32 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
billyh wrote:
If your opponent happens to have instant speed enchantment removal in hand...

...and you have 1WW open then you go get Second Sunrise when Conflux resolves :wink:


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-03 4:46 pm 

Joined: 2008-Oct-14 9:54 pm
Age: Dragon
I understand it seems strong but resolving that many spells thru a symetrical effect still doesn't seem too easy


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