Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Dec-15 4:21 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 593 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 2:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Frozen_Rainbow wrote:
Alright so I'm looking at you rationale and I am at a loss. Your whole argument is based off of the thought that "because [you] keep running into it, it needs to be ban". With basic logic has everyone on the RC for edh forgotten the VAST amount of cheap, easily attained and used removal that exists?

On a personal note it seems as always ONLY CASUAL players were asked about this, not all of us play battle cruiser, and even the ones that do benefit from this. Also prophet and muse are very equal, the flash has not inherent value without etb effects. To counter the argument that edh is casual, it's not apways, a vast segment of the population of players is put out with this because card shops follow these rules.

Can a competitive player honestly answer me a question...

Why do you feel the RC should cater to you and what do they stand to lose if they don't that they would actually care about?
(your continued participation in the format is not necessary so threatening to leave doesn't really matter to the RC)

_________________
Xenagos, God of Revels
Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 3:07 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Since when is a $12 card difficult to attain for this format? $50+ sure but Seedborn is hardly a stretch to budget.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 3:21 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Sep-15 5:03 am
Age: Dragon
Frozen_Rainbow wrote:
Alright so I'm looking at you rationale and I am at a loss. Your whole argument is based off of the thought that "because [you] keep running into it, it needs to be ban". With basic logic has everyone on the RC for edh forgotten the VAST amount of cheap, easily attained and used removal that exists?

On a personal note it seems as always ONLY CASUAL players were asked about this, not all of us play battle cruiser, and even the ones that do benefit from this. Also prophet and muse are very equal, the flash has not inherent value without etb effects. To counter the argument that edh is casual, it's not apways, a vast segment of the population of players is put out with this because card shops follow these rules.


I...what? No. That's just completely wrong.

Seedborn muse gives you mana on your opponents turn. PoK let's you cast creatures on your opponents turns. PoK means that every turn is your turn because you can untap mana and draw spells.

I honestly don't understand how you could think those two cards have an equal effect. Are you just trolling us?

_________________
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Curse of the Swine is like the unholy love child of Terastodon and Dregs of Sorrow. AND it makes bacon!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 3:48 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Frozen_Rainbow wrote:
On a personal note it seems as always ONLY CASUAL players were asked about this, not all of us play battle cruiser, and even the ones that do benefit from this. Also prophet and muse are very equal, the flash has not inherent value without etb effects. To counter the argument that edh is casual, it's not apways, a vast segment of the population of players is put out with this because card shops follow these rules.


It's a format designed for social play. I'm not sure why the RC catering to non-competitive players always comes as such a shock. There's also a big difference between casual/non-competitive play and battlecruiser Magic.

As for Seedborne Muse/PoK comparisons, as a non-casual player you realize that there are endless ETB effects to abuse with flashy creatures, yes? Something as simple as Elemental Bond, Garruk's Packleader, or really any repeatable draw can create a gamestate where a player is taking four turns for every one his opponents take. PoK does die to removal, but any canny player will try to draw out spot removal before casting her or at least have counter magic ready. She creates enough tempo that hoping to topdeck removal is waiting too long.

I find it fascinating that casual players are saying good riddance, while competitive players are consistently downplaying her power, possibly in an effort to keep their toys from getting taken away. She's never ruined any games for me, but that doesn't mean I can't see how easily abused she is. When I used to run her in Vorel she was a monster. I pulled her long ago because she made me feel so dirty.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 4:16 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
Frozen_Rainbow wrote:
Alright so I'm looking at you rationale and I am at a loss. Your whole argument is based off of the thought that "because [you] keep running into it, it needs to be ban". With basic logic has everyone on the RC for edh forgotten the VAST amount of cheap, easily attained and used removal that exists?

On a personal note it seems as always ONLY CASUAL players were asked about this, not all of us play battle cruiser, and even the ones that do benefit from this. Also prophet and muse are very equal, the flash has not inherent value without etb effects. To counter the argument that edh is casual, it's not apways, a vast segment of the population of players is put out with this because card shops follow these rules.

Can a competitive player honestly answer me a question...

Why do you feel the RC should cater to you and what do they stand to lose if they don't that they would actually care about?
(your continued participation in the format is not necessary so threatening to leave doesn't really matter to the RC)

As someone who plays competitive EDH alongside normal EDH, I'm actually surprised at the outrage. Everyone in every casual meta I play in is happy with the change, while all of the competitive players are saying "meh, who cares?". Honestly, in most non-casual metas I played in, it was rarely seen. Pretty much Damia control and MAYBE Riku were the only ones that ever ran it. Why? It has virtually no function in super fast combo or prison/STAX decks, and most of the control lists either couldn't run it or didn't have enough creatures to use it to its full potential. Although, with the death of Partial Paris those trends might end up changing to a format that would have favored PoK a bit more, but what's done is done.

The only players really bothered by it were people who played stuff like MW or other generals that can steamroll a casual meta but fall flat against a competitive one.

Personally, I don't care at all. I rarely ran it, and I rarely played against it. Although when it did show up it tended to be either game-ruining or laughably useless, so overall the ban was a slight net positive for me.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 7:11 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Epsilon wrote:
Since when is a $12 card difficult to attain for this format? $50+ sure but Seedborn is hardly a stretch to budget.


I don't really get why you think a piece of card board is worth more than 2$

The nearest flgs sells seedborn for 20€, a card that nobody plays.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 8:01 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
illuknisaa wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Since when is a $12 card difficult to attain for this format? $50+ sure but Seedborn is hardly a stretch to budget.


I don't really get why you think a piece of card board is worth more than 2$

The nearest flgs sells seedborn for 20€, a card that nobody plays.


The whole MTG community sets a hell of a lot of cards way above $2, if you don't agree with this you will rarely be happy with MTG. 'Pieces of Card' continually sell for hundreds of dollars/pounds/euros daily, i myself sell alot and buy alot for my Cube, EDH and for modern and tiny leaders. Seedborn is a classic casual card but it's prints are old now, hence the price. if you don't like the price, don't run it

_________________
Uriel wrote:

I didn't failed nothing


My EDH Cube


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-18 9:15 pm 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
I'm sad to see it go. In my opinion, it was one of those cards that wasn't a problem if played responsibly (unlike Iona, for instance).
Of course, I understand how it can become a problem at some tables. It's easy to see how the ban was justified; you could even say expected, as a quick read of this thread demonstrates.

I would just like to add that I don't agree with the RC stance that there should be a threshold on the frequency of bans. It seems now that no more than one card should be banned every couple of years. It's not official in any way, but is strongly implied.
Considering the speed at which WotC releases new cards and current growth of the format, I don't think stalling possible bans results in a consistent ban list. It is my belief that there are a few very good candidates that get a pass because we have to keep "an acceptable growth rate" (which feels somewhat arbitrary).
In short, I'd prefer a more aggressive ban policy, which doesn't necessarily equate a very much longer ban list.

EDIT:
I realize my post may sound contradictory, so to clarify my position about PoK:
1- If it is considered worthy of the banhammer, I wonder why it wasn't banned before.
2- I believe there are others cards that deserve more (or at least as much) the ban than PoK, and yet remain legal.
These two points make me question the current ban policy the way I did in my second paragraph above.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-19 12:15 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
lumination wrote:
1- If it is considered worthy of the banhammer, I wonder why it wasn't banned before.

I think the answer here is that they take a more deliberate approach to bannings - that is to say, nothing gets reflex banned. Even freaking Griselbrand got to stay in the format for a few months and that thing is about as close to a direct reprint of an already banned card as we've seen. So it wasn't banned before because they hadn't yet concluded that it was needed, not because they felt there needed to be more time between bannings.
lumination wrote:
I don't agree with the RC stance that there should be a threshold on the frequency of bans. It seems now that no more than one card should be banned every couple of years. It's not official in any way, but is strongly implied.

I read that more as they feel it's a good thing that they haven't felt compelled to act on many cards, not that they have some secret ban-rate quota they're adhering to.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-19 12:21 am 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Sid the Chicken wrote:
lumination wrote:
1- If it is considered worthy of the banhammer, I wonder why it wasn't banned before.

I think the answer here is that they take a more deliberate approach to bannings - that is to say, nothing gets reflex banned. Even freaking Griselbrand got to stay in the format for a few months and that thing is about as close to a direct reprint of an already banned card as we've seen. So it wasn't banned before because they hadn't yet concluded that it was needed, not because they felt there needed to be more time between bannings.
lumination wrote:
I don't agree with the RC stance that there should be a threshold on the frequency of bans. It seems now that no more than one card should be banned every couple of years. It's not official in any way, but is strongly implied.

I read that more as they feel it's a good thing that they haven't felt compelled to act on many cards, not that they have some secret ban-rate quota they're adhering to.


There is no secret quota. The fact is that we would rather wait and observe to make sure we don't pull the trigger to early. We'd rather a card but around one cycle too long than ban it and realize it didn't need to be. Additionally, Prophet's problems didn't start immediately. At first, it seemed fun. Then, it slid toward oppressive. That's when we took action.

_________________
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-19 1:07 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-11 9:41 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I think the answer here is that they take a more deliberate approach to bannings - that is to say, nothing gets reflex banned. Even freaking Griselbrand got to stay in the format for a few months and that thing is about as close to a direct reprint of an already banned card as we've seen.

That's not quite true actually:

Avacyn Prerelease Events April 28-29, 2012
BANNED LIST ANNOUNCEMENT: JUNE 2012 on June 19, 2012.

Griselbrand was banned after only 52 days because
Sheldon wrote:
We knew all along it was pretty busted.
This is further evidenced by Worldfire:
Magic 2013 Prerelease Events July 7-8, 2012
20 September Banned List Announcement on September 18, 2012.

That ban happened after 73 days. It shows the RC is willing to pull the trigger quickly if they feel it negatively impacts the format enough.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-19 2:08 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Dune Echo wrote:
That ban happened after 73 days. It shows the RC is willing to pull the trigger quickly if they feel it negatively impacts the format enough.

I'm curious how you think that disproves my statement that nothing gets reflex banned? They knew both those cards were coming and could EASILY have banned them as soon as they were released... BUT THEY DIDN'T. Even cards that are obviously broken as fuck and/or clearly bad for the format like Griselbrand or Worldfire stayed legal for one announcement cycle.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-19 4:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Jun-23 2:32 pm
Age: Drake
Meeee


Last edited by fattyluvboat on 2018-Oct-19 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-19 5:44 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Jul-25 1:15 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Durham, England
As a Johnny, I'm glad to see we'll be getting no more Prophet n' goodstuff decks. As a Spike, I'm glad there's one less reason for people to cast bribery on me when I'm playing blue.

(But you had to go and buff bribery anyway didn't you rules committee? Grr.)

_________________
I had a long hiatus, removed some decks, but I still love lands.
Tatyova, Benthic Druid - Exploring Brawl
Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle - Work in Progress
Yasova Dragonclaw - Yasova Tinyclaw/Slightly-less-tinyclaw
Kruphix, God of Horizons - That Which Was Taken by Kruphix
Selvala, Explorer Returned - Blackless dredge
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Monogreen Superfriends
Pharika, God of Affliction - Hemlock


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-19 7:52 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Frozen_Rainbow wrote:
Alright so I'm looking at you rationale and I am at a loss. Your whole argument is based off of the thought that "because [you] keep running into it, it needs to be ban". With basic logic has everyone on the RC for edh forgotten the VAST amount of cheap, easily attained and used removal that exists?
Definitely not. Have you forgotten EVERY card can be answered, so 'answers exist' is a terrible ban list argument?

Quote:
On a personal note it seems as always ONLY CASUAL players were asked about this, not all of us play battle cruiser, and even the ones that do benefit from this. Also prophet and muse are very equal, the flash has not inherent value without etb effects. To counter the argument that edh is casual, it's not apways, a vast segment of the population of players is put out with this because card shops follow these rules.
If you think Flash has no value, I would really have to question your evaluation of this, or any other card, in EDH. Extra mana, plus flash is why it gets played and Seedborne rarely does.

No one was asked about PoK, we all had our say, both sides. You can't honestly say only anti-PoK people said anything, it has been argued for months.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 593 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: