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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-02 1:16 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
I don't really get why PoK gets banned when something like iona gets to roam free.

Iona literally stops people being able to play the game while prophet only allows the controller play more. Even if iona only hits that one mono color player and nobody else this means that the game is essentially over for that one player but due to the nature of multiplayer he can't just concede and shuffle up for a new game. Iona sure engourages those amazing social games when 3 people play mtg and one person plays angry birds.

Iona is also a lot harder to remove by removing one color from the game and having a huge butt. Iona's ability also takes effect as soon as she hits the table unlike prophet's.

This is based strictly off my own experience, so take that for what it's worth, but I believe PoK was banned because self-regulation was largely failing to keep it in check, whereas Iona is largely able to be self-regulated.

Meaning, the average, casual EDH group easily and readily understands that Iona is a dick - maybe they have to see it in action a time or two first, but the end result is, the vast majority of casual players will avoid her like the plague because they understand it to be a detrimental card.

The only people who ignore all the evidence before them that Iona is a funwrecker are selfish assholes and the format is not designed to cater to them anyway. Banning a card to stop assholes from being assholes is never going to work anyway.

Meanwhile PoK is almost impervious to self-regulation almost precisely for the argument you just made! "She doesn't stop YOU from playing Magic, she just allows ME to play MORE Magic!" That justification alone had kept several people I know, including myself, playing her despite the amount of loating she inspires.

That all said, I don't see where Iona actually adds anything postive to the game whatsoever, so I'd fully support a banning of her simply because I see such a move as being 99% net positive - but by and large Iona seems to be a case where the social contract is doing an exceptional job of keeping her in check - if you experience is different, my belief is that you are playing with people that WILL find a way to ruin your fun no matter how many cards the RC bans.

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Last edited by thaumaturge on 2016-Feb-02 1:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-02 1:17 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
People dropping Iona are either morons, or know they're being jerks and are doing so intentionally. She's the kind of thing that people get really mad at you for.
Except when she isn't a problem at all. Iona (just like PoK) is totally fine in some metas. The difference between Iona and PoK is that Iona only rarely sees play in metas where she is a problem and PoK was constantly played in metas where it was a problem.

In fact, if you go back and look at Iona ban threads, there are essentially two modes of posts:

I1) Nobody ever plays Iona in my meta, but one time one guy did, and it was problem. He took it out right after that game. Iona should be banned.

I2) People play Iona in my meta fairly regularly. We all know how to play around it and run answers in a variety of colors and colorless. It rarely survives more than a turn cycle or two. The card is fine and doesn't need to be banned.


If you look at this thread there are also two modes of posts:

P1) People play PoK in my meta constantly. It's a huge problem and dominates games either for the player who casts it or for the one who steals or clones it. PoK should be banned.

P2) People play PoK in my meta constantly. It just dies to Swords or a Wrath within a couple turns. It's a solid utility card, but it's fine.

The difference is between I1 and P1. That's why PoK needed to be banned and Iona still doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-03 12:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I think the easiest way to answer that question is to just look at the amount of complaint PoK has been getting vs. Iona. I say this fully understanding that "gets lots of complaints" is not a banning criteria, and fully understanding that the internet is not necessarily representative of the community at large, and I'd like to see her die in a fire too.

However, Iona just doesn't seem to be causing issues for the format on any sort of widespread basis, the way PoK definitely seems to. There are several reasons for this.
A: Blue and green are the most popular/powerful colors.
B: PoK only costs 5. Iona costs 9.
C: PoK is less vulnerable to social pressures. People dropping Iona are either morons, or know they're being jerks and are doing so intentionally. She's the kind of thing that people get really mad at you for. PoK is more like Primeval Titan - a great source of advantage that everyone wants, so much so that it can be extremely polarizing. People might be upset that you have it, because of the massive advantage you're getting, but it doesn't say "you can't play the game" on it.
End result - Iona doesn't see much play, and PoK was everywhere.


a&b: I thought power level wasn't a banning criteria?

c: If lots of people complain about pok and lots of poeple play pok doesn't that mean opinions on pok? Also if almost everybody collectively agrees that iona is a problem why isn't it banned?

I also saw pok as much as I see iona.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-03 1:04 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
illuknisaa wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I think the easiest way to answer that question is to just look at the amount of complaint PoK has been getting vs. Iona. I say this fully understanding that "gets lots of complaints" is not a banning criteria, and fully understanding that the internet is not necessarily representative of the community at large, and I'd like to see her die in a fire too.

However, Iona just doesn't seem to be causing issues for the format on any sort of widespread basis, the way PoK definitely seems to. There are several reasons for this.
A: Blue and green are the most popular/powerful colors.
B: PoK only costs 5. Iona costs 9.
C: PoK is less vulnerable to social pressures. People dropping Iona are either morons, or know they're being jerks and are doing so intentionally. She's the kind of thing that people get really mad at you for. PoK is more like Primeval Titan - a great source of advantage that everyone wants, so much so that it can be extremely polarizing. People might be upset that you have it, because of the massive advantage you're getting, but it doesn't say "you can't play the game" on it.
End result - Iona doesn't see much play, and PoK was everywhere.

a&b: I thought power level wasn't a banning criteria?

His A & B answers aren't claiming the card's power level is too high.
A) That colour combination (blue & green) is powerful on it's own - and with that, it also makes it a popular combination to include in your deck. So this isn't power level of the card, it's overall power level of the colours combined with that making it popular, thus many people will be in the right colours to play it.

B) Also not power level. Casting cost is relevant as a lower-cost card is more likely to come out as it's just simply easier to cast. Also, it's likely to enter play earlier when people wont have had as much time as when someone is able to cast a 9cc spell.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-03 2:57 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I am sure many people are not interested in my opinion, which is why I don't scream it from the rooftops, but this really is a casual format. If someone plays with cards you don't like or wins too fast or smells or whatever you can get up and walk away.

I think banning a card shouldbe the last resort. Saying " I don't like blue skys so the RC should ban them" is immature and inconsiderate.

I am not saying if you don't have a play group them sucks to be you, u am saying that if you expect someone else to do the work so you can always find a fun game you are going to be disappointed.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-03 4:08 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Inkeyes22 wrote:
I think banning a card shouldbe the last resort.

Hence why PoK was legal for so long?

illuknisaa wrote:
Also if almost everybody collectively agrees that iona is a problem why isn't it banned?

Most people agree Iona is not fun. That's not the same as her being a problem for the format. Because unlike PoK she self-regulates - the people that want the kind of games that Iona generates tend to be the only ones playing her. Obviously this is not an absolute, but a general trend. She is obviously anti-social in a way that cards like PoK and Prime Time were not, while also being hard to cast and in a less popular color. If you're seeing a lot of her, well you have my deepest sympathy. I'd like to see her go as well, but there is no actual NEED for her to be banned, and so she is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-03 4:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
I think banning a card shouldbe the last resort.

Hence why PoK was legal for so long?

illuknisaa wrote:
Also if almost everybody collectively agrees that iona is a problem why isn't it banned?

Most people agree Iona is not fun. That's not the same as her being a problem for the format. Because unlike PoK she self-regulates - the people that want the kind of games that Iona generates tend to be the only ones playing her. Obviously this is not an absolute, but a general trend. She is obviously anti-social in a way that cards like PoK and Prime Time were not, while also being hard to cast and in a less popular color. If you're seeing a lot of her, well you have my deepest sympathy. I'd like to see her go as well, but there is no actual NEED for her to be banned, and so she is not.

I've always avoided Iona in my decks because she seems too easily turned against me. I would have to always name blue to prevent cloning. A big creature that essentially says opponents cant play blue seems boring.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-03 10:19 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
I think banning a card shouldbe the last resort.

Hence why PoK was legal for so long?


People forget how long ago Theros actually was.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-04 10:56 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:
Also if almost everybody collectively agrees that iona is a problem why isn't it banned?

Most people agree Iona is not fun. That's not the same as her being a problem for the format. Because unlike PoK she self-regulates - the people that want the kind of games that Iona generates tend to be the only ones playing her. Obviously this is not an absolute, but a general trend. She is obviously anti-social in a way that cards like PoK and Prime Time were not, while also being hard to cast and in a less popular color. If you're seeing a lot of her, well you have my deepest sympathy. I'd like to see her go as well, but there is no actual NEED for her to be banned, and so she is not.


How is not self regulating worth a ban? Sol ring is basically the "not self regulating" -incarnate and it is not banned. Sol ring even hits multiple ban criteria ways pok never could.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-04 1:32 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Please don't make this a Sol Ring discussion, there is so much internet ink spilled on the subject.

Each card is evaluated individually WRT the banning criteria. "X is banned so Y should be", or "X is way worse that Y" arguments are NOT considered when a card is banned.

Prophet interacts badly with the format (multiplayer) creates a disproportionate effect for it's cost (both card and mana cost), creates undesirable board states and reduces format diversity. This has been discussed at length and within the banning announcement.

The banning of prophet is a net positive for the format. Unless you directly contravene that sentence, then you are not arguing against it's banning, you are arguing the ban/unban of another card, which probably belongs in a different thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-05 1:47 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
illuknisaa wrote:
How is not self regulating worth a ban? Sol ring is basically the "not self regulating" -incarnate and it is not banned. Sol ring even hits multiple ban criteria ways pok never could.

You're comparing a card that is OP turn 1, very strong turn 2 and quickly decreases in value as the game wears on to cards that can take over the game whenever they drop.

I've tried my best to explain why, from my point of view, Iona is not banned and PoK is. If you don't like my reasoning, so be it.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 2:09 am 

Joined: 2017-Jan-12 2:02 am
Age: Egg
After a year of not being able to play this really cool card, can we revisit this ban?

Right when this card was spoiled, I instantly fell in love with it. What sucks most is that she is arguably only good in EDH and now she is banned in it and sees zero play elsewhere. It's a damn shame.

Obviously that alone shouldn't constitute an unbanning. However, I believe she is fragile and vulnerable and is easily dealt with which is one of the bigger reasons she should be unbanned.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-25 12:20 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
Perhaps I can answer the question as to why Prophet was banned.

In my meta we had a player who abused Prophet. Once it hit the table, he would protect her and start taking 5 minute durdle turns at the end of everyone elses turn. Highly impressive the first time you saw it. After that, I started to fall asleep at the table waiting for my turn. (20+ minutes of durdle later)

Basically card draw, counters, protection, recursion,untap abilities and a limited win con that requires filtering through most of your deck. Once the player has control, nobody can effectively touch the person's board state and they are goldfishing until they determine they have their win con and decide to win. (seriously just take the nap and wait for the next game)

Remember how I mentioned it taking 20 minutes between your turns with one player using up 95% of that time? I heard a rumor someone played this deck type at a game with members of the rules committee.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-25 1:03 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
crimson wrote:
I heard a rumor someone played this deck type at a game with members of the rules committee.

That's probably just that - a rumor. I've been told many "facts" about the RC and why things are banned, and most of them are obvious BS. For example, you can do that kind of durdle at everyone's endstep with Seedborn Muse + a variety of other cards. Prophet was certainly the most efficient way to do it, but I highly doubt "someone did this to the RC, and that's why they banned it" is legit. The biggest assumption here is that it implies the RC (a group of long-time magic players and judges) somehow doesn't understand what cards do unless someone shows them. That's a pretty big pile of steaming arrogance/ignorance right there.

Prophet was banned for being not just abusable, but meta-warping. If one card is always the correct Bribery target, for example, that card is a problem. If that card shows up in every deck where it is legal to play, that's an even bigger problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-25 1:36 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
The context of the situation made it more believeable, but it's obviously still rumor. I don't know if I would call these sorts of rumors arrogance.

There is definitely a difference between knowing a kick to the family jewels is painful, and experiencing it first hand. Having first hand experience with a poster child deck abusing a card is very likely to be sufficient to implement a ban on a borderline problem card.

My goal was not to state how the card was banned as much to explain how badly the card was being abused and the effects on the game. Seriously, who really wants to watch someone else play for 20 minutes in between their turns?


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