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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 5:02 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
Ukkmaster wrote:
FZA wrote:
Ukkmaster wrote:
See, every time I see someone bring this up, I want to ask this: Why is it that you specifically want it un-banned? Not the reason you think people will want to hear, but that you specifically want it un-banned, for yourself. If you state "because it could be fun", then your argument falls into the category of "different people think different things are fun."

You can call the threads stale all you want, but neither side has seen a new argument probably since I started on these forums (at least that I have noticed), which makes it a stale discussion.


It doesn't need a new argument. The old ones were perfectly valid, just look at any of those threads, there are tons of good arguments in favor of unbanning PS and zero in favor of keeping it banned. I honestly feel like the RC has just forgotten about this card. If they were to sit down and think about if for a second they'd realize that it's completely absurd to keep it banned.

I shouldn't have to come up with a list of uses for it to be unbanned, either, though I did list some cool uses of PS in my original post, and could list tons more if you wanted me to. The burden of proof should always be on those in favor of banning, not those in favor of unbanning. If there isn't overwhelming support/evidence for a card to be banned, it shouldn't be.

The fact that it is on the banlist should not be a reason to keep it banned. It should be evaluated independently every single time the RC makes a rules announcement. Not just just forgotten and assumed to be ban worthy because it is already on the list.


I didn't ask for a list. I asked for your reasons. For example, what does it add to the game?

Personally, I'm rather indifferent, though I know what would occur if it did, within about an 800 km range of where I live. But, then, anecdotal experience never plays into the banning or unbanning of any card, right?


Painter's Servant is a very cool, unique, interesting card. There are a lot of things you can do with it that no other card can do. There are so many cool interactions with PS, far more than bad ones. Naming all of them would take hours. I think it is silly to throw that all away just because we are afraid some people will do lame stuff with it. Honestly, anyone that would use PS with Iona is probably not somebody you want to play with anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 5:33 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
I honestly feel like the RC has just forgotten about this card. If they were to sit down and think about if for a second they'd realize that it's completely absurd to keep it banned.

You have obviously done your homework. There is no prominent place anyone on the RC has directly commented on Painter's Servant in the last few months.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27541_Christmas-QA.html
Sheldon wrote:
What are the current views on Painter's Servant?

That it's both dangerous and cool. Unfortunately, because of what it does with some current cards and the easy potential for it to interact poorly (for the format) with cards in the future, it's more dangerous.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 5:48 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
crokaycete wrote:
FZA wrote:
I honestly feel like the RC has just forgotten about this card. If they were to sit down and think about if for a second they'd realize that it's completely absurd to keep it banned.

You have obviously done your homework. There is no prominent place anyone on the RC has directly commented on Painter's Servant in the last few months.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27541_Christmas-QA.html
Sheldon wrote:
What are the current views on Painter's Servant?

That it's both dangerous and cool. Unfortunately, because of what it does with some current cards and the easy potential for it to interact poorly (for the format) with cards in the future, it's more dangerous.


To me, that seems like a cop out on Sheldon's part, like he was deliberately dodging the question. I'd like to hear some actual reasoning from the RC on why the card is banned, not just that it's "dangerous". How is it any more "dangerous" than Survival of the Fittest and Hermit Druid, etc. Like I said, I've yet to hear a legitimate argument.

It also kind of sounds to me like someone trying to argue that alcohol should be illegal or something. Yes, a few people will do stupid crap with it, by why does that mean the rest of us can't enjoy it responsibly?


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 6:31 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
What are the current views on Painter's Servant?

That it's both dangerous and cool. Unfortunately, because of what it does with some current cards and the easy potential for it to interact poorly (for the format) with cards in the future, it's more dangerous.


To me, that seems like a cop out on Sheldon's part, like he was deliberately dodging the question. I'd like to hear some actual reasoning from the RC on why the card is banned, not just that it's "dangerous". How is it any more "dangerous" than Survival of the Fittest and Hermit Druid, etc. Like I said, I've yet to hear a legitimate argument.

So you said they ignored it, and were proven incorrect. Now it's a cop out. At what point is it that they thought about it and decided it was ban worthy? I mean you don't agree, but that's moot.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 6:36 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
FZA wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
What are the current views on Painter's Servant?

That it's both dangerous and cool. Unfortunately, because of what it does with some current cards and the easy potential for it to interact poorly (for the format) with cards in the future, it's more dangerous.


To me, that seems like a cop out on Sheldon's part, like he was deliberately dodging the question. I'd like to hear some actual reasoning from the RC on why the card is banned, not just that it's "dangerous". How is it any more "dangerous" than Survival of the Fittest and Hermit Druid, etc. Like I said, I've yet to hear a legitimate argument.

So you said they ignored it, and were proven incorrect. Now it's a cop out. At what point is it that they thought about it and decided it was ban worthy? I mean you don't agree, but that's moot.


Like I said I think that they decided to ban it a while ago and are now just assuming they made the right choice earlier and aren't discussing it anymore. Which is bad.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 6:41 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
Like I said I think that they decided to ban it a while ago and are now just assuming they made the right choice earlier and aren't discussing it anymore. Which is bad.

OK but if nothing new can be said, why would they come up with a different opinion?

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 7:57 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
FZA wrote:
Like I said I think that they decided to ban it a while ago and are now just assuming they made the right choice earlier and aren't discussing it anymore. Which is bad.

OK but if nothing new can be said, why would they come up with a different opinion?


Because if they were to reopen the topic and discuss it, I just can't fathom how they would come up with the same answer. When Staff was unbanned, there was nothing "new" to be said either, they just realized an earlier mistake and fixed it.

It's fine for the RC to make mistakes, but it's not fine for them to just ignore something they did a while ago and assume it was the right decision, especially when most people disagree with that decision. I'll say it again, I have not heard a single person give a well constructed argument as to why the Servant should be banned. Not one.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 8:25 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
FZA wrote:
To me, that seems like a cop out on Sheldon's part, like he was deliberately dodging the question.

Painter's Servant being banned is essential to the identity of the format and poses a unique restriction on deck construction.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 8:31 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
Because if they were to reopen the topic and discuss it, I just can't fathom how they would come up with the same answer. When Staff was unbanned, there was nothing "new" to be said either, they just realized an earlier mistake and fixed it.

It's fine for the RC to make mistakes, but it's not fine for them to just ignore something they did a while ago and assume it was the right decision, especially when most people disagree with that decision. I'll say it again, I have not heard a single person give a well constructed argument as to why the Servant should be banned. Not one.

They have clearly spoken about it recently, and have chimed in on the discussion. You don't like their decision, but it has clearly been discussed to death and stayed consistent.

You can't just declare it a mistake and expect any traction. I mean have a good time beating your head against the wall I guess.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 8:44 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I don't think staff being banned originally was a mistake. The unbanning makes sense because the edh landscape has changed.

What was the original banning rationale for servant? Has the environment changed? Retreading the same Iona/grindstone arguments is tiresome.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-25 10:39 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
I don't think staff being banned originally was a mistake. The unbanning makes sense because the edh landscape has changed.

What was the original banning rationale for servant? Has the environment changed? Retreading the same Iona/grindstone arguments is tiresome.

Staff was originally banned for two reasons:
1. At the time, the RC had a burning hatred for 2-card combos.
2. They had trial unbanned Rofellos, who turned out to be broken as shit, and they overcompensated by banning staff.

Now, the reasons Painter WAS banned originally:
They hated 2 card combos and decided that Servant+Grindstone was broken. Then Iona shower up and they decided to switch Servant with Grindstone and try to kill two birds with one stone.

Now, it goes without saying that the reason it was originally banned no longer applies. As seen by the unbanning of Staff, WGD, and LED, banning stuff for two card combos is not a good idea. Further more, Grindstone is UNPLAYABLE without PS (and I'd argue with PS even), and Iona is a funsuck no matter what deck runs it.

Here are other reasons that have been given since then:
1. Other color hosers (Deathgrip, Lifeforce, REB). This argument is dumb at best. All of these cards are both unplayable without PS AND kind of dick cards with or without PS.
2. Combos with generals to do bad things: This argument probably would be the most relevant, since synergy with generals is probably the biggest reason people would run it. Really, the only general that PS can turn from benign to bad is Teysa. All the other interactions either aren't that bad of interactions, or the general's ability was already bad to begin with.
3. The vast majority of his synergies reduce interaction: This reason would probably be more valid if in the previous thread Shoe didn't make a list that proved this point wrong, at least among cards that are both EDH playable and not "obviously unfun", which are really the only cards that matter. Secondly, reducing interactivity isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Some cards that the format loves like Spearbreaker Behemoth have almost no purpose but to reduce interactivity, but the RC would never ban them. To ban a card that doesn't reduce interactivity by itself for reducing interactivity when there are cards like Teferi, Privileged Position, and Laboratory Maniac are allowed to run free is just logically inconsistent to say the least, especially considering NO OTHER CARD on the banlist was banned for that reason (including Servant) and none of them are staying there for that reason either.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-26 9:05 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Unban Time Vault.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-26 9:27 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
niheloim wrote:
I don't think staff being banned originally was a mistake. The unbanning makes sense because the edh landscape has changed.

What was the original banning rationale for servant? Has the environment changed? Retreading the same Iona/grindstone arguments is tiresome.

Staff was originally banned for two reasons:
1. At the time, the RC had a burning hatred for 2-card combos.
2. They had trial unbanned Rofellos, who turned out to be broken as shit, and they overcompensated by banning staff.

Now, the reasons Painter WAS banned originally:
They hated 2 card combos and decided that Servant+Grindstone was broken. Then Iona shower up and they decided to switch Servant with Grindstone and try to kill two birds with one stone.

Now, it goes without saying that the reason it was originally banned no longer applies. As seen by the unbanning of Staff, WGD, and LED, banning stuff for two card combos is not a good idea. Further more, Grindstone is UNPLAYABLE without PS (and I'd argue with PS even), and Iona is a funsuck no matter what deck runs it.

Here are other reasons that have been given since then:
1. Other color hosers (Deathgrip, Lifeforce, REB). This argument is dumb at best. All of these cards are both unplayable without PS AND kind of dick cards with or without PS.
2. Combos with generals to do bad things: This argument probably would be the most relevant, since synergy with generals is probably the biggest reason people would run it. Really, the only general that PS can turn from benign to bad is Teysa. All the other interactions either aren't that bad of interactions, or the general's ability was already bad to begin with.
3. The vast majority of his synergies reduce interaction: This reason would probably be more valid if in the previous thread Shoe didn't make a list that proved this point wrong, at least among cards that are both EDH playable and not "obviously unfun", which are really the only cards that matter. Secondly, reducing interactivity isn't a bad thing in and of itself. Some cards that the format loves like Spearbreaker Behemoth have almost no purpose but to reduce interactivityinteractivity, but the RC would never ban them. To ban a card that doesn't reduce interactivity by itself for reducing interactivity when there are cards like Teferi, Privileged Position, and Laboratory Maniac are allowed to run free is just logically inconsistent to say the least, especially considering NO OTHER CARD on the banlist was banned for that reason (including Servant) and none of them are staying there for that reason either.
which was my point. Staff made sense when banned, makes sense now to unban.

Servant made sense when banned- Iona was new and deserved a chance. But now? now it would make perfect sense to unban servant given no one really thinks Iona offers interesting deck design space.

But the arguments are tiresome... The conversation is tiresome.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-26 10:19 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tarnar wrote:
Unban Time Vault.

Thank you for not contributing to the discussion by trying to compare PS to a card with whom the bannings had nothing in common.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-26 10:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Thank you for not contributing to the discussion by trying to compare PS to a card with whom the bannings had nothing in common.

Really?


GS was banned when PS was printed
Then Iona was printed. GS unbanned, PS banned.

A simple and sensible interpretation is that PS was banned because it's a degenerate two mana combo piece that will only get more broken as more cards come out that combo with it.

It has no little redeeming value except in the minds of those performing mental gymnastics to justify it ("I want another Shifting Sky, one that lets me hose, er, um, interact with my opponents lands and/or their cards not on the battlefield! It's a unique and interesting effect!")


TV was banned when the power errata was lifted.

A simple and sensible interpretation is that TV was banned because it's a degenerate two mana combo piece that will only get more broken as more cards come out that combo with it.

It has no little redeeming value except in the minds of those performing mental gymnastics to justify it ("I want another turn skipping card! It's a unique and interesting effect!")

Edit: Same content, now with slightly less absolutes. Never, ever, ever use absolute statements.

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