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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 4:24 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
NMS wrote:
Iona, Shield of Emeria... isn't really a problem because... everyone I know only plays 3 color decks?... so it's hard to to hurt other people more than yourself...

Not to nitpick, but Iona doesn't affect her controller. I know you're being sarcastic anyways, just sayin'.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 5:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-04 3:38 pm
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Quote:
We pay attention to all the discussions on these boards. We've already had discussions regarding PS (at most of the meetings over the last year, in fact). We still think it would do more harm to the format than good if it came off the list.



IMHO, I think that a good criteria to ban/unban a card is to ask "When this card will be unbanned it will interact good or bad with most of the card interactions in magic playable in EDH?"

Let's analize now the PS interactions:

Bad interactions : Iona, Grindstone. We have only 2 cards which could bring to a degenerate game state.

Good Interactions : Playing decks with a lots of creatures having "protection of X color", playing a deck that love to use the Radiate mechanic from Ravnica, playing with Jaya Ballard, Savra, Lyzolda Teysa, Eight-Tails-and-Half, etc.


Here the fun interactions that outclass by a lot all the possible bad interactions that the Servant could bring in the format. So that why the benefits for the format would outclass the risk to harm it actually.

Now let's make a comparison with another legal card in the format : Iona herself.

Good Interactions : none, especially against mono or bicolor decks. Preventing your opponent to play his spells is arguably the less fun thing possible for the format.

Bad interactions : Even without abusing her with Kaalia or other cheat-to-play stuff, everybody agrees that only his existence in the table make to groan players which do not play her.



A Switch of the cards in the ban-lists would be the most better choice IMHO (so that at least the Painter won't come up with Iona when someone plays T&N), also the PS interactions with Grindstone is arguably one of the worst and fragile combo to make up in EDH: It won't make anything on who's playing Ulamog/Kozilek, in the best case it would kill only one player per turn (so that's opponents got's plenty of time t9 think an answer) and the Grindstone alone it's a completely useless card. It is not nearly comparable at all to the efficiency of the most common way to mill all your opponent's out in one shot, Temple Bell+Mind Over Matter for example. And the last interactions is legal for the format.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 6:30 am 

Joined: 2013-Feb-03 7:15 am
Age: Drake
I see five cards definitely against:

Grindstone
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Washout
Hibernation
Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Some number of cards that are questionable:

Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Red Elemental Blast and similar interactions
Seedtime
All is Dust

Cards that are cool:

Teysa, Orzhov Scion and some of the similar stuff.
Combust and the reasonableish REB-style interactions (this is iffy territory)


Sounds like Sheldon is about right:

Sheldon wrote:
We pay attention to all the discussions on these boards. We've already had discussions regarding PS (at most of the meetings over the last year, in fact). We still think it would do more harm to the format than good if it came off the list.


That said, I do think that we should have a card-by-card justification page linked to from the banlist.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 6:52 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
osieorb18 wrote:
That said, I do think that we should have a card-by-card justification page linked to from the banlist.


I think each of those "justifications" should look something like... "because it's our decision."

So far, the RC has done a fabulous job of keeping the banned list small, and removing brutal cards from the format. Plus, they have been very straight foward with their criteria... If the card doesn't meet them, it comes off the list. (See WGD & Staff).

Let's cut them a bit of slack, and be content with them saying that they have looked at it again and have made their ruling. It's not like they are getting paid to do this for the community.

A post about this is fine... we can ask, "Have you looked at unbanning X card, receintly?" If they say yes... lets move on.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 7:09 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
osieorb18 wrote:
Cards that are cool:

Withering Gaze! Justice!

That said, there are a bunch of cards that it interacts poorly with if you want to go to the level of Hibernation (i.e. maybe playable in your metagame without PS, but definitely a pain in the ass if PS is down). Anarchy, Bereavement, Gloom, and Chill all spring to mind without even resorting to Gatherer.

Rasalom wrote:
Let's cut them a bit of slack, and be content with them saying that they have looked at it again and have made their ruling. It's not like they are getting paid to do this for the community.

A post about this is fine... we can ask, "Have you looked at unbanning X card, receintly?" If they say yes... lets move on.

This. Snark about their pace aside, they are very cautious when it comes to unbanning things that are definitely abusable, and there is no doubt in my mind that PS is abusable. I think that the abuses of it are clearly dick moves (just like WGD and Staff) and wouldn't prove problematic outside of metagames where dick moves are the norm, but I can't fault the RC for being circumspect about it.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 7:13 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
All is dust would become fairly hideous in combination with Painter's servant.

Even accidentily, as AID is pretty common.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 7:21 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
I think there is also the concern of Iona 2.X. Wizards constantly sets precedent for future cards that are very similar to older ones. To unban it, ban 1 or 2 other cards, then see more almost identical (see Grislebanned) when one card would suffice that makes all those others worse? Would look rather silly to watch a single card bounce on and off of it.

Just a thought.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 7:52 am 

Joined: 2013-Feb-03 7:15 am
Age: Drake
Rasalom wrote:
osieorb18 wrote:
That said, I do think that we should have a card-by-card justification page linked to from the banlist.


I think each of those "justifications" should look something like... "because it's our decision."


I'm going to make a new thread about this...

I think that Painter's Servant should be discussed regularly, but that the RC should be careful about it.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 7:58 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
JJackson wrote:
This. Snark about their pace aside, they are very cautious when it comes to unbanning things that are definitely abusable, and there is no doubt in my mind that PS is abusable. I think that the abuses of it are clearly dick moves (just like WGD and Staff) and wouldn't prove problematic outside of metagames where dick moves are the norm, but I can't fault the RC for being circumspect about it.


While I would agree that WGD is hard to play and not abuse, even accidentally, Staff can be played with out breaking it... the only time you can really break it is if you have a mana dork out that taps for large amounts of mana... otherwise, it's versitile, yes, but broken no...


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 8:16 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-04 3:38 pm
Age: Dragon
Quote:
All is dust would become fairly hideous in combination with Painter's servant.


It can't be worst than the -legal- interaction with Mycosinth Lattice+Darksteel Forge+Neyvinirral Disk in Arcum Daggson decks. Or the Worldslayer with any random indestructible general, especially Avacyn. All format legal interactions which nobody screams "they ruin the format, ban the cards"!


All is Dust + Painter Servant is actually something more like Apocalypse/Obliterate/Decree of Annihilation Spells, the red form to sweep the table where everybody start from zero again.


Quote:
Anarchy, Bereavement, Gloom, and Chill all spring to mind without even resorting to Gatherer.


Red actually got already universal sweepers even without the Painter Servant and Gloom doesn't need the PS to mass lock opponent spells since it already have the Nether Void.



Quote:
I see five cards definitely against:

Grindstone
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Washout
Hibernation
Llawan, Cephalid Empress



How about cards like Kiki-Jiki, Tooth and Nail or Mind over Matter, which go easily infinite with at least seven if not more cards? Painter Servant got even more right to be unbanned than these cards, if are the numbers the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 8:43 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Rasalom wrote:
JJackson wrote:
This. Snark about their pace aside, they are very cautious when it comes to unbanning things that are definitely abusable, and there is no doubt in my mind that PS is abusable. I think that the abuses of it are clearly dick moves (just like WGD and Staff) and wouldn't prove problematic outside of metagames where dick moves are the norm, but I can't fault the RC for being circumspect about it.


While I would agree that WGD is hard to play and not abuse, even accidentally, Staff can be played with out breaking it... the only time you can really break it is if you have a mana dork out that taps for large amounts of mana... otherwise, it's versitile, yes, but broken no...
Sorry, I see now that my phrasing is a bit ambiguous. I meant the reading that says that the abuse of WGD and Staff are clearly dick moves, not that WGD and Staff themselves are clearly dick moves.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 9:16 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
So it seems to me like the general opinion is overwhelmingly in favor of unbanning Servant.
No. Most of us who understand why it's banned and want it to stay that way are just bored by presenting the exact same valid arguments in every thread just to have them ignored by people who don't like the PS ban.

You found some cute combo you think will be "fun." It will make everyone else miserable as you grind the game to a standstill with <insert color hoser> and punish them for controlling lands or trying to attack or playing spells... but eff those guys. You're just "interacting."

I am also blown away that people actually think Teysa + PS would be a good thing to have in the format. 2 cmc card + 3 cmc general for a continuous "exile all creatures you don't control?" That's fun?

But you think 9-mana Iona by herself is OP sucks all the fun out of a multi-player game where most players are probably on 2-3 color decks?

Doesn't that sound insane to you?

This is why most of us aren't bothering with this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 9:36 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-04 3:38 pm
Age: Dragon
Quote:
are just bored by presenting the exact same valid arguments in every thread


What valid arguments? All the "valid arguments" are easily debunked since we got already tons of legal EDH cards which could do the same if not worse things that PS would do in the worst case. And if all these cards are not banned, I don't see why PS should stay banned.


Quote:
You found some cute combo you think will be "fun." It will make everyone else miserable as you grind the game to a standstill with <insert color hoser> and punish them for controlling lands or trying to attack or playing spells... but eff those guys. You're just "interacting."


Those are issues we also got with legal cards. You really aren't saying anything relevant to the thread. Let's pick Contamination. There is a moment when it won't make the game miserable to all players which does not play black? Probably not. And even if all players play black, it makes the game more fun or interactive somehow for his presence? Nope again. And still, is a card which is legal and if a playgroup found that unfun will simply house-ban without the needing of a official ban from the RC. The PS got much, much more right to be legal in the format than Contamination, because unlike the enchantment, the PS, could actually bring interestings and fun game-state in the game if people are willing to do so. Even if in the end "fun" or "miserable" are subjective opinions which differs from player to player.


Quote:
I am also blown away that people actually think Teysa + PS would be a good thing to have in the format. 2 cmc card + 3 cmc general for a continuous "exile all creatures you don't control?" That's fun?


Since lots of people when they build an Avacyn deck think that it would be awesome to attack with a Worldslayer equipped or that every Arcum Daggson decks of this world that I know love the trinity "Forge+Disk+Lattic", looks like that yes, lot's of people think it's ok or even fun in EDH blowing up only opponents permanents. Those things are happening every day, even without the PS presence. If you don't like the player playing PS+Teysa, the problem is not of the card, but of the player, because it could make even a worse job with the already mention it Avacyn or Daggsson (or Teferi, or Zur, or Jhoira, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 10:19 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Uriel wrote:
the problem is not of the card, but of the player,

All human problems are caused by humans, not by the inanimate objects we create to hose each other with. So clearly the solution to this problem is to ban players, since they are the cause.
Uriel wrote:
What valid arguments? All the "valid arguments" are easily debunked since we got already tons of legal EDH cards which could do the same if not worse things that PS would do in the worst case. And if all these cards are not banned, I don't see why PS should stay banned.

I see this line of thinking a lot in discussions about the banned list. The logic has to go both ways. If X and Y are similar and X is banned, but not Y, it does not follow that X should be unbanned, because it is equally valid that Y should be banned. Also, "similar to an existing banned card" is not generally a banning criteria they use, although it sometimes seems impossible to justify otherwise (see Yawgmoth's Bargain vs. Griselbrand).

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-28 11:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
Social contract aside... and this would have to be the ultimate opening hand... but stil....

Turn 1, Land, Sol Ring, Painter's Servant.
Turn 2, Land, Grindstone, Activate Grindstone... your 4 player game just became a 3 player game.

Wow... now let's assume that someone remaining has a disenchant effect for their turn 2 play. If they destroy one of those items, how hard would it be to recure and play it again?

And this could go into ANY deck.... yes, the eldrazi/ green decks can have built in ways to stop this...but even if you are not going off of grindstone... any of the other affore mentioned color hozers are going to be played, Hell... at that point you might as well be playing alone, because after a few rounds of this, you might be...

Plus, if you are main decking PS, you are not just going to toss it in there with nothing to do with it... you are going to tutor it up and have some "fun" interaction with it.


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