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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 6:36 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
So it comes back, as always to this: EDH players cloned and blinked Sylvan Primordial into oblivion. Even when they didn't own any forests. They are perfectly willing to do powerful things even they are not any fun. And the powerful things PS does are, with rare exception, no fun. So what do you really think we are going to see it do?


Bad argument. Sylvan Primordial was played by the masses with mostly innocent intentions, primarily because it ramped. What it did in actual games did not tend to be what people expected it to do when putting it into their decks, which is why it caused major problems.
As I (and others) have repeatedly told you, the bad things you're complaining that PS can do don't happen on accident. You simply don't (and really can't) accidentally add Anarchy to your deck and not know exactly what you're trying to accomplish. And, again, as we've pointed out, if you want to destroy all permanents, it's not hard to do without requiring a two card combo. And, BTW, if you're seriously going to argue that a two card "combo" to save one mana over Jokulhaups is in any way good, I think we can safely ignore your opinion.

maiden77 wrote:
Having a card in deck that only makes the commander a bit better just doesn't cut the mustard for me.

That's quite true for good stuff decks, but many (likely most) players like designing their decks around their commander. And really... gaining 50 life instead of 5 per swing seems more then "a bit better" anyway. (The local Treva player usually gained around that much back when PS was legal.)

crokaycete wrote:
Everyone knows it's possible to play PS for extra life with Treva or to make Jaya sort of semi-good. That's just not the way it was played and I seriously doubt it's the way it would be played again.

Umm... actually, yeah. That's exactly how painter's servant was played when it was legal. It's one card that was banned recently enough that I have a lot of actual experience playing with it legitimately legal as opposed to just "testing legal."
I only ever saw servant in two types of decks. Decks where it had synergy with the commander like the ones you're making fun of, and combo decks. The combo players had new (often better) combos ready about 2 seconds after the ban. The synergy players lost a good, irreplaceable card for their deck, or in several cases, quite playing that decks altogether. It was a bad ban when it happened, and it's a bad ban now.
Nobody was playing servant with stuff like Deathgrip or Anarchy when it was legal. Nobody. People who liked degenerate things had far more powerful degenerate things to do that didn't require multiple cards that where useless on their own. Once in a blue moon it happened with Wash Out (about as often as Lattice and Vandalblast happens in casual settings now). And that was only because Wash Out used to actually get played in normal, non-servant decks. Not sure about you, but I haven't seen a Wash Out cast outside of a Wishboard in over a year.

Rasalom wrote:
But this is a hell of alot more work/ cards then 2 card combo. Not to mention the mana spent to do it. PS + GS = 6 mana ... colorless mana.

It takes one card to go off. The other 6 cards just have to be in your deck. Also, it costs 4 mana total to go off. Two to cast the druid, 1 to activate, and 1 to unearth fatesticher. That's cheaper then the Grindstone combo and it requires less cards in hand to go off.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 6:50 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
I think tuck and prison enchants and spot removal in general (excuse the pun) are very prevalent in my meta, so you just can't rely on having a general, also most of the creatures in the deck just do more work that treva in some circumstances so I usually have something else to spend the mana on, like droskol reaver, if he was legendary O.MY.GOD but yeah, i do agree it can be uber powerful for any of the dragons like oros or vorosh, just my meta doesn't allow the general to be always available, thus neutering cards that are too narrow. And to be fair the life gain in Treva is never normally massively high in my meta due to wraths too, so even with PS it would be maybe 15 life, which is good ofc but not enough compared to say, blue sun's zenith or beacon of immortality that may be arguing for the same space, obviously its more 'on theme' than the blue sun, but damn, i wants me some draw effects in my deck lol

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 7:01 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
maiden77 wrote:
And to be fair the life gain in Treva is never normally massively high in my meta due to wraths too, so even with PS it would be maybe 15 life

So... typically your group only has 15 permanents in play at a time? On a 4 player game, that's just under 4 lands each.

Remember, PS turns everything that colour - including lands and artifacts; so those would be counted for Treva as well.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 7:06 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I really don't think there were many "innocent" SP players at the end. I think most people knew exactly how destructive it had become and played it anyway. Certainly enough people complained about it that it was hardly a secret that people thought it was problem.

And that's sort of the point. People put SP in decks because it "looks fun." But they kept it there because it's powerful. And then they warped decks around making it more powerful. Then, bam! Wrecking games and metas.

Nobody goes "Oops, I was running this Anarchy anyway and look what it accidentally did with PS!" but somebody can very easily start out with some innocent interactions, decide they like PS but want it to be stronger, then be led down the path to the Dark Side. And it's the strong, abusive interactions that are going to stay in decks over time and impact more games. Just like they did with SP. And the Dark Side for PS is, as the kids with whom I used to ride the city buses in Oakland would say, hella dark.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 7:43 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Nobody goes "Oops, I was running this Anarchy anyway and look what it accidentally did with PS!" but somebody can very easily start out with some innocent interactions, decide they like PS but want it to be stronger, then be led down the path to the Dark Side.

That's not realistic at all. If there were lots of more innocuous "degenerate" things to do with PS, you might have a point. But there aren't. It's not at all like the Sylvan Primordial situation, and relating the two is such a massive stretch of logic I'm even sure where to begin.
Playing a few more reanimation spells... a blink effect here and there... maybe a few clones... a extra creature tutor... All of those are seemingly perfectly innocuous things that seem very reasonable as you add them one at a time, and they all have uses outside of the primordial. And then, without realizing it you're playing Sylvan Primordial LD.dec
You're adding the clones and such because "Well, they're good cards... and yeah, they happen to be good with Primordial, but hey, that's not the only reason I want them... really, it's not. And even with Primoridal, it's just ONE more activation, after all."
That's the chain of logic that leads to doom.

With PS, there is no slow progression, no death of a thousand cuts.
There simply aren't dozens upon dozens of already good cards and effects to use with PS that you can slowly add to your deck and eventually end up playing for team evil.
There is no mental gymnastics that people are going to go through that ends with them adding Anarchy to their deck. Anarchy isn't a good effect like clone or reanimate is. It's only purpose in the deck would be to interact with PS. No sort of Mental Gymnastics will change that, and furthermore, it's purpose with PS is crystal clear. There is no "it's only one more activation" justification.

Furthermore, Painter's Servant was legal for years, and the progression into darkness you described simply didn't happen. There wasn't a realistic path for it to happen, and that hasn't changed.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 8:02 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Carthain wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
And to be fair the life gain in Treva is never normally massively high in my meta due to wraths too, so even with PS it would be maybe 15 life

So... typically your group only has 15 permanents in play at a time? On a 4 player game, that's just under 4 lands each.

Remember, PS turns everything that colour - including lands and artifacts; so those would be counted for Treva as well.


HO.LY.SHIT! that is pretty silly haha :-P i was counting non-land, so yeah, PS would be gross! haha i take back my twittering about PS in Treva....i would rock that shit so hard haha, good for circumventing protection and fear I suppose too! which is actually quite relevant for me against soldiers and zombies that my mates play

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 8:29 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
What I've found amusing is that among many of the older, more veteran or experienced players, people are very happy to see it staying banned, while some of the younger or those who haven't been heavily playing for as long don't think it's could be that bad.

I wonder if it's in part due to a lot of these older players remember the days of the colour hosers so much more clearly?

Just an interesting observation for my area.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 8:57 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ukkmaster wrote:
What I've found amusing is that among many of the older, more veteran or experienced players, people are very happy to see it staying banned, while some of the younger or those who haven't been heavily playing for as long don't think it's could be that bad.


The veteran players have a bad tendency to rely on very selective memory... not to mention, they tend to dislike change in general. Obviously, not all of us feel that way, but it does seem to be the norm among veteran players.
There is a reason Kokusho stayed banned years past the point where is was remotely ban-worthy... Too many veteran players had vivid memories of horrible things happening in games they'd personally played, and no amount of logic or reason can sway people being ruled by emotion. It took actual testing, with real games, to wash away those bad memories and allow reality to set in.
The tiny % of games played where Painter's Servant wasn't fun are all those players remember of the card now, and those emotional memories have convinced them that PS can't possibly be fair, reason and logic to the contrary be damned. It's why people keep throwing out arguments that really don't make any sense.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


Last edited by kaldare on 2014-Apr-29 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 8:59 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
kaldare wrote:
That's the chain of logic that leads to doom.

Furthermore, Painter's Servant was legal for years, and the progression into darkness you described simply didn't happen. There wasn't a realistic path for it to happen, and that hasn't changed.


But you say that like it's a bad thing.... Sweet, sweet doom.... besides, nobody ever sees the Darkness coming.


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 Post subject: Re: It's time to free Painter's Servant
AgePosted: 2014-Apr-29 2:04 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think kaldare is hitting on something important. If all these hypothetical "let's include every color hoser in the world because of PS" scenarios ACTUALLY HAPPENED when it was legal, don't you think it might have been mentioned in the banning announcement? However, the banning announcement says nothing of the sort, it only refers to PS's combo potential.

Also, the selective memory point is also a good one. Mana Leak to this day is one of my least favorite cards because of the one time when I was just starting out and I tried using a slightly edited preconstructed deck and got 2 of them used on my Garruk Wildspeaker that I just bought. Now, while I can remember that like it was yesterday, I don't remember a single time I faced it in one of the scores of Caw Blade decks I had the privilege of facing years later.

Same deal with Servant. Nobody remembers that one time that it allowed Circu to mill 2 cards by casting Brainstorm, but everyone remembers the time that it and Iona ruined the game. This is also why house rule legalization tends not to work. You'll play 5-10 games where it does very little or even does something to improve the game, but that one time that it allows your Regal Force to draw those two extra cards needed to win the game, you'll have people saying "dude, you only won because you used a broken card. That's why that thing is banned!" And those people probably won't let you use it again.


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