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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-19 8:42 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
That's exactly the point. It's just more problematic to say "No, your Sen Triplets can't cast that card despite the fact you got a Chromatic Lantern in play but the player with Daxos of Meletis can", then simply follow the regular magic rules.


It sounds like you need to teach your friends the Golden Rule of Magic :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 3:02 am 
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Quote:
"You can't generate mana outside your color identity" literally takes 15 seconds.



Yes, but when it comes to cards like Daxos or Mycosynth Lattice or Celestial Dawn or Quicksilver Elemental or Harvest Mage or any possible card that mess up with the rules color identity, 15 seconds definitely are not enough.

Again, it's simply dumb to make a rule which makes erratas on City of Brass or Exotic Orchard. It's unnecessary memory issue which brings only problems to the game. It's the same to errata life-setted-cards like Serra Ascendant or to make say that every general got "protection to Karakas" (when the card was format legal). It's a rule that it's not simply good for rules reason and intuitive gameplay. And in fact those rules (the Karakas and life-setted erratas) were once upon a time, official EDH rules, which get abolished because it was bringing just a confusion that wasn't worth the rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 3:13 am 
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Uriel wrote:
Again, it's simply dumb to make a rule which makes erratas on City of Brass or Exotic Orchard.

The color identity rule doesn't make any erratas, it just tells you how cards interact with the format. If the color identity rule actually made erratas, then the rule wouldn't say what it does, it would instead say something like:

The following cards have errata as they pertain to this format:
1. City of Brass: "_____________________"
2. ...
3. etc.

This might seem like I'm splitting hairs, but it is actually a fairly important difference. You may not see it that way, but it's been plainly clear from nearly* every other argument there's nothing any of us can do about it.

*I say nearly, but I don't actually have a single example of you accepting what someone else says. There's always a possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 3:22 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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Uriel wrote:
Quote:
"You can't generate mana outside your color identity" literally takes 15 seconds.



Yes, but when it comes to cards like Daxos or Mycosynth Lattice or Celestial Dawn or Quicksilver Elemental or Harvest Mage or any possible card that mess up with the rules color identity, 15 seconds definitely are not enough.

First, those cards don't mess up the rules for colour identity. Colour Identity just tells you what the colour identity of a card is. It's a different rule that says you can't generate mana outside of your commander's colour identity.

And, cards like Daxos and Mycosynth Lattice are fine -- you're not generating mana outside your commander's colour identity, you are spending mana as if it were another colour. Different concepts, just similar in play execution.

The only card that really messes things up is Harvest Mage. And in that case, I just prefer to spirit of the game and say screw Harvest Mage, it can't override the rules of the game. But, that's just personal/local houserules.

So overall -- there is one card. One! Only one out of thousands that interacts badly (unintuitively) with the rule. I think that's a pretty good success rate.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 4:14 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-04 3:38 pm
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Quote:
And, cards like Daxos and Mycosynth Lattice are fine -- you're not generating mana outside your commander's colour identity, you are spending mana as if it were another colour. Different concepts, just similar in play execution.


Believe me, it degenerate confusion to new players of the format. For new players "make mana of any color" and "spend mana as if it is mana of any color" it's the same thing, and it's simply counterintuitive make them different only because an arbitrary edh rule say so. Ruleswise, without that edh rule, they act as a same thing in the gameplay.

Quote:
The only card that really messes things up is Harvest Mage.


It's not the only one. Any of those cards that I quoted generate a lot of confusions to new players for different reasons (the player which got donated Celestial Dawn doesn't understand why he can't use the white mana as it was mana of any color, the Sen Triplets player don't understand why he can't play offcolor cards despite a Chromatic Lantern in play while the Daxos player can and so on). I know that for experience, I train a lot of people to play EDH, and everybody agree on the fact that this rule it's simply stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 4:35 am 
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Location: Midgard
Uriel wrote:
...and everybody agrees on the fact that this rule is simply stupid.

Problematic to this is you could very well be teaching these new players in a way which makes them conclude the rule is stupid. When you have a strong opinion about something, and you obviously do, it can be hard to remain objective while teaching about it.

As far as my experiences on the subject is concerned, I haven't had anyone complain about the rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 4:48 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
Its a restriction mostly to keep from stealing other players permanents and then playing them off color.



Which it's completely non-sense, since it's anyway possible to do that (see daxos of meletis for example)

It's absurd to give erratas on cards (which it's different from the others rules restriction of the format). city of brass or exotic orchard should do exactly what is written in the card text. It's completely counterintuitive to make a rule which would be effective only in narrow situations.


Setting aside the value of the rule, there is no errata involved. City of Brass continues to tap for any color of mana. A replacement effect then modifies that. Its no different from arguing that City of Brass should tap for any color of mana when Contamination is in play.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 5:04 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
Quote:
And, cards like Daxos and Mycosynth Lattice are fine -- you're not generating mana outside your commander's colour identity, you are spending mana as if it were another colour. Different concepts, just similar in play execution.


Believe me, it degenerate confusion to new players of the format. For new players "make mana of any color" and "spend mana as if it is mana of any color" it's the same thing, and it's simply counterintuitive make them different only because an arbitrary edh rule say so. Ruleswise, without that edh rule, they act as a same thing in the gameplay.

I know -- in fact if you look at what I said, I commented on that fact specifically. But, it's actually pretty easy to explain if you take the time to do so.

Consider each colour of mana to be a different currency. When you generate mana, you withdraw that much from the bank in that currency. When you spend mana, you are using the currency you have withdrawn to 'purchase' the spell you are casting (or ability to activate, etc.)

Generating mana is withdrawing the money, spending it is using the money that you have. Those are two distinct processes, same as in the game. And, just like in Magic, they seem very similar, but are in fact two distinct aspects.


Uriel wrote:
I train a lot of people to play EDH, and everybody agree on the fact that this rule it's simply stupid.


Do you even know what the purpose of that rule is for? One is flavour reasons -- but there is another aspect that this rule keeps in check. Do you know what it is? Because if you don't, then it's no wonder you think it's stupid. In which case, instead of complaining about it, perhaps you should take the time to investigate and find out why that rule exists in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 6:26 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-04 3:38 pm
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Quote:
Do you even know what the purpose of that rule is for? One is flavour reasons -- but there is another aspect that this rule keeps in check. Do you know what it is?


What? color identity philosophy? It's full of flawness in every place. To quote mark rosewater, which give an example of how awkwardly are the EDH rules in the color identity:

""T, Pay one life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool" is allowed in every deck.

"T, Pay one life: Add W, U, B, R or G to your mana pool" is not allowed except in five-color commander decks.

One template everyone can use it and one almost no one can."


http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/55 ... r-identity


Also:

My basic issues with Commander’s color identity for those that don’t want to read the article is that they aren’t intuitive (meaning they don’t work in some cases the way players expect) and are more complicated than they need to be.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/40 ... e-on-color



It is wrong? It is right? Doesn't matter: It shows that the "counterintuitive issue" it's not a my personal fantasy but it's a real problem, which even the members of the WotC are aware of. Not only:

"I often talk in my column about how R&D is always looking for rules it can kill. I really like the Commander format, but if I was allowed to make one change to the format, this would be my choice."

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazi ... ily/mm/148

And mine also.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 6:36 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So -- you come here to complain, and expect results -- but you don't bother to listen to what other people are saying?

I already told you that your (current) issue isn't with the Colour Identity rules (903.4), but with the one that prevents you generating mana outside of your commander's colour identity (903.9).

So why bring up irrelevant information? If you aren't even sure what it is that you think is a stupid rule, how can you say it's a stupid rule?

Also, taking MaRo's quotes about Commander is a distinct appeal to inappropriate authority. He doesn't play the format (he doesn't play multiplayer) and isn't invested in the format and why things are the way they are.

Trying to have a proper discussion with you is, yet again, proving to be a futile effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 6:41 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Carthain wrote:
Trying to have a proper discussion with you is, yet again, proving to be a futile effort.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 6:50 am 
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I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And since work has been overworking me lately, the break from that to talk here is a good thing. But there's only so much banging of one's head against the wall that you can do.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 7:16 am 
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Carthain wrote:
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And since work has been overworking me lately, the break from that to talk here is a good thing. But there's only so much banging of one's head against the wall that you can do.

It was mostly out of jest, rather than a pointed, somewhat subtle insult...

>.>

In any case, I gave the benefit of the doubt earlier. Once Mark Rosewater gets brought up, though, as an ultimate authority on EDH, the head banging stops. Certainly there are better places for head banging?

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 9:13 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
It is wrong? It is right? Doesn't matter: It shows that the "counterintuitive issue" it's not a my personal fantasy but it's a real problem, which even the members of the WotC are aware of.
If he is wrong or right IS an important issue. Even the simplest or most direct interaction is misunderstood by some people, not everyone's opinion about an issue it equally relevant. He makes reference to rules that can be killed, this does not fall in that arena. Sure some people do not LIKE it, but it serves a real function. They don't just kill off difficult to understand rules if they serve a function.

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 9:28 am 
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I don't quote MaRo as an autoritithy of EDH but because he's the Magic Head Designer, and as a Magic Designer I think he know better than us what is good for Magic gameplay and what not, since if Magic is what it is now it's also thank to him.
"My perspective today is from the vantage point of a designer. I am focusing on what aspects make the format fun and accessible.". That's from his words.

Quote:
I already told you that your (current) issue isn't with the Colour Identity rules (903.4), but with the one that prevents you generating mana outside of your commander's colour identity (903.9).

So why bring up irrelevant information?


My dear Carthain, you said it's irrelevant just because you don't even read the article (otherwise you wouldn't have wrote this). Because MaRo it's referring also about this issues:
"if you somehow manage to get a permanent under your control that taps for another color of mana, it produces colorless mana instead.

My designer instincts asked the following question the first time I saw this set of rules: Why do you need the first rule with the second one in the game? You want to stop people from playing cards with other colored mana symbols on them—but they won't be able to produce the color to use them anyway."



MaRo can be wrong in his point of view? Sure, but he can be wrong at the same time Sheldon, or me or everybody guys here can be wrong about something. So why don't you stop with the forma mentis of "This is the right and it's your fault that you don't understand properly the truth of the facts" instead of "the truth of facts doesn't exist. Let's discuss about a solution that would make happy more people possible"?

Because with this mana generating rule, you, Carthain are, acting in this way. You are not doubting at all of the fact that the rule could be in any way wrong, but you are simply saying "instead of complaining about it, perhaps you should take the time to investigate and find out why that rule exists in the first place".

But, my dear Cathain I know perfectly why the rule exist in the first place. That, however, doesn't legitimate the rule itself if those reasons are not working anymore for the Magic of today.


Quote:
Trying to have a proper discussion with you is, yet again, proving to be a futile effort.


Sadly, this it's true, it is not possible to talk with you guys. Because you all think that EDH rules are dogmas which are sculpts in the stones and not arbitrary statements which can be changed for the sake of a better gameplay.

Anyway, really you know what? I really should not waste my time with blind walls. I think this gonna be my last post. Farewell and good things. Fortunately, EDH live for his own even with the presence of some closedminded people.


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