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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-20 3:26 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
Sadly, this it's true, it is not possible to talk with you guys. Because you all think that EDH rules are dogmas which are sculpts in the stones and not arbitrary statements which can be changed for the sake of a better gameplay.
We don't all think this, you are putting it on us. The EDH rules change, color identity has changed for the better, with lots of positive feedback. Removing this rule is not an improvement to us, and a slight simplification is not worth the loss of gameplay and flavor. You don't agree, which is fine, but the hyperbole of 'everyone I have ever played with thought the rule was dumb' and the like make having a productive discussion almost impossible.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-21 12:37 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Trying to have a proper discussion with you is, yet again, proving to be a futile effort.

Sadly, this it's true, it is not possible to talk with you guys. Because you all think that EDH rules are dogmas which are sculpts in the stones and not arbitrary statements which can be changed for the sake of a better gameplay.

It's not possible because you're not listening to what we have to say. You've come here with your own opinion, and aren't willing to listen and understand what other people are saying.

Don't put the blame on us -- we have various discussions here where people change their minds. Never once have we seen you demonstrate that.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-21 12:42 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
I don't quote MaRo as an autoritithy of EDH but because he's the Magic Head Designer, and as a Magic Designer I think he know better than us what is good for Magic gameplay and what not, since if Magic is what it is now it's also thank to him


I think you can underline a little better that EDH in no part is what it is due to the RC, but mostly due to the people that designed the cards.

Also, I'd edit your post to remove the "since if Magic is what it is now it's also thank to him." since smartasses like Carthain will use that to point out that in the same sentence you're saying not trying to appeal to authority, you in fact are doing so.

Uriel wrote:
Sadly, this it's true, it is not possible to talk with you guys. Because you all think that EDH rules are dogmas which are sculpts in the stones and not arbitrary statements which can be changed for the sake of a better gameplay.


Both common sense and Ockham's razor would suggest that all other people being crazy and you being sane is the most likely situation.

need me some gd sarcasm tags

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Reaper King
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oro, Ageless Ascetic
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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-21 1:00 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
As I see it this boils down to:

Magic is complicated, there are a lot of rules to make it work, and there have to be. It is possibly the most complex game on the planet, where you can play over ten thousand different cards printed across twenty years.

EDH was designed in a particular way to make it unique (and hopefully fun). There are EDH rules specifically tied to flavour.

Today, in the Commander era, these rules are written in a way that they work totally within the existing framework of Magic's rules. They are even part of the Comprehensive Rules. They use the same rules mechanisms to modify the game.

There are oddities that arise because of this.

Oona, Queen of the Fae can use Memory Plunder to play a Lightning Bolt out of Brion Stoutarm's graveyard.

Oona, Queen of the Fae cannot use Praetor's Grasp and a Darksteel Ingot to play the same card out of Brion Stoutarm's library.

These oddities have nothing to do with the goals of the EDH rules. Those oddities have everything to do with the specific way concepts like replacement effects and alternative costs work.

Cards modify the game rules. That basic concept makes Magic good. It also means that cards can modify EDH rules, as EDH rules are grounded in Magic rules, and perhaps do so in counter intuitive ways.

Pointing out that these oddities exist doesn't advance the argument that the flavour goals baked into the EDH rules are in any way "bad" or "wrong".

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-27 1:44 am 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
MRHblue:
Removing this rule is not an improvement to us, and a slight simplification is not worth the loss of gameplay and flavor. You don't agree, which is fine, but the hyperbole of 'everyone I have ever played with thought the rule was dumb' and the like make having a productive discussion almost impossible.


So basically we're down to two points: Gameplay and flavour.

Is there a way that, as a fan base, we could figure out for you (either logically or through popular opinion) if this rule adds anything to gameplay and/or flavour?


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-27 4:47 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It definitely adds to flavor -- it shows that not only does your commander not bring in foreign tools (off-colour cards), but that they are so foreign that he can't even manipulate them using that style/colour of magic.

In fact, the whole reason this rule exists is because of the flavor that it represents.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-27 5:54 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
iplaymtg wrote:
So basically we're down to two points: Gameplay and flavour.

Is there a way that, as a fan base, we could figure out for you (either logically or through popular opinion) if this rule adds anything to gameplay and/or flavour?
Is this question directed at me, or the OP?

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-28 6:35 am 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
iplaymtg wrote:
So basically we're down to two points: Gameplay and flavour.

Is there a way that, as a fan base, we could figure out for you (either logically or through popular opinion) if this rule adds anything to gameplay and/or flavour?
Is this question directed at me, or the OP?


I don't know, but I'm the OP. I just want to help make EDH better.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-28 9:56 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
iplaymtg wrote:
I don't know, but I'm the OP. I just want to help make EDH better.

So you were asking me then :) I would say this topic has been discussed quite a bit, and plenty of people think it brings in good flavor. It is definitely a gameplay restriction, and a large % of those same people think the restriction breeds creativity.

That's all opinion of course, there is no black and white.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-30 3:40 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
iplaymtg wrote:
I don't know, but I'm the OP. I just want to help make EDH better.

So you were asking me then :) I would say this topic has been discussed quite a bit, and plenty of people think it brings in good flavor. It is definitely a gameplay restriction, and a large % of those same people think the restriction breeds creativity.

That's all opinion of course, there is no black and white.


I know this is all opinion, but may I ask how does restricting the mana you can have breed creativity? Apart from sunburst, I can't imagine how it could impact the game from your deck's perspective, since your deck already can't include cards that have colors outside of your commander's. It really only impacts what you can do when playing your oponents cards.

For flavor reasons, it's sort of strange that Sen Triplets can't play a forest and then birds of paradise from someone's hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-31 3:42 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Right, but the question you have to ask yourself is whether not being able to cast Birds is stranger flavor than Kaervek be able to cast Swords to Plowshares with a City of Brass and Praetor's Grasp.

Given that there are a very small of legends that make sense flavor-wise being able use off-color mana and a very large number that don't, this rule is generally fits pretty well.

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-31 3:08 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
iplaymtg wrote:
For flavor reasons, it's sort of strange that Sen Triplets can't play a forest and then birds of paradise from someone's hand.

*points up at his previous post....*


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-31 9:38 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Right, but the question you have to ask yourself is whether not being able to cast Birds is stranger flavor than Kaervek be able to cast Swords to Plowshares with a City of Brass and Praetor's Grasp.

Given that there are a very small of legends that make sense flavor-wise being able use off-color mana and a very large number that don't, this rule is generally fits pretty well.


This.

As with many things in life, you can argue this both ways. Most people will get both points of view but may feel stronger towards one or the other. General consensus here seems to be that the way things are isn't perfect, but up till now no one has been able to think of a simple, workable rule that keeps the flavor of "your General only knowing and thus playing his colors" intact while adding to consistency.

The rule is a compromise, it's not the way things would be idealy. Flavor-wise you don't really want people playing Polluted Delta in a UR deck. Even odder is that the reddest and most flavorful card out there (Quenchable Fire) is barred from mono-R due to a rule created to flavor. It's not perfect, but until something better comes along, it's the best we have.

_________________

Teneb, the Harvester
Heartless Hidetsugu
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Reaper King
Ruhan of the Fomori
Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Ol
oro, Ageless Ascetic
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Nekusar, the Mindrazer



Sapling of Colfenor
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Niv-Mizzet the Firemind
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary



Child of Alara
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Rith, the Awakener
Brion Stoutarm
Experiment Kraj
Razia, Boros Archangel
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Wort, Bogart Auntie
Kaalia of the Vast
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-01 6:02 am 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
crokaycete wrote:
Right, but the question you have to ask yourself is whether not being able to cast Birds is stranger flavor than Kaervek be able to cast Swords to Plowshares with a City of Brass and Praetor's Grasp.


You're right. I don't see how a land that Kaervek owns could produce white mana. However it would make a lot of flavour sense for him to get white mana from a plains that he got with Praetor's Grasp.

crokaycete wrote:
]Given that there are a very small of legends that make sense flavor-wise being able use off-color mana and a very large number that don't, this rule is generally fits pretty well.


It fits well until you start involving other people's lands, with cards like Shared Fate. This could be fixed if it had the clause " from permanents you own" tacked on to the rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-01 6:07 am 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
24x30cl wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
Right, but the question you have to ask yourself is whether not being able to cast Birds is stranger flavor than Kaervek be able to cast Swords to Plowshares with a City of Brass and Praetor's Grasp.

Given that there are a very small of legends that make sense flavor-wise being able use off-color mana and a very large number that don't, this rule is generally fits pretty well.


This.

As with many things in life, you can argue this both ways. Most people will get both points of view but may feel stronger towards one or the other. General consensus here seems to be that the way things are isn't perfect, but up till now no one has been able to think of a simple, workable rule that keeps the flavor of "your General only knowing and thus playing his colors" intact while adding to consistency.


Why not change the rule to the following? (bolded text is added)

903.9. If mana would be added to a player's mana pool from an object that player owns of a color that isn't in the color identity of that player's commander, that amount of colorless mana is added to that player's mana pool instead.

This fixes pretty much everything on both sides of the argument.

24x30cl wrote:
The rule is a compromise, it's not the way things would be idealy. Flavor-wise you don't really want people playing Polluted Delta in a UR deck. Even odder is that the reddest and most flavorful card out there (Quenchable Fire) is barred from mono-R due to a rule created to flavor. It's not perfect, but until something better comes along, it's the best we have.


You're talking about the color identity rule (903.5c), while everyone else here is talking about the mana production rule (903.9).


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