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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-01 9:15 am 
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iplaymtg wrote:
Why not change the rule to the following? (bolded text is added)

903.9. If mana would be added to a player's mana pool from an object that player owns of a color that isn't in the color identity of that player's commander, that amount of colorless mana is added to that player's mana pool instead.

This fixes pretty much everything on both sides of the argument.

But then you have things like "My Darksteel Ingot works differently than your Darksteel Ingot" even though they should be the same. Or even though one player controls both.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-01 11:04 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think it's kind of a flavor fail that Kaervek would even be able to draw colorless mana from a Plains, much less white.

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-01 3:35 pm 
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crokaycete wrote:
I think it's kind of a flavor fail that Kaervek would even be able to draw colorless mana from a Plains, much less white.


But should the Sens Triplets be able to tap a forest for green?


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 12:12 am 
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iplaymtg wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
I think it's kind of a flavor fail that Kaervek would even be able to draw colorless mana from a Plains, much less white.


But should the Sens Triplets be able to tap a forest for green?

In the EDH/Commander version of Magic -- no. (IMO naturally)


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 5:06 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
iplaymtg wrote:
Why not change the rule to the following? (bolded text is added)

903.9. If mana would be added to a player's mana pool from an object that player owns of a color that isn't in the color identity of that player's commander, that amount of colorless mana is added to that player's mana pool instead.

This fixes pretty much everything on both sides of the argument.
That's a much less intuitive rules that only fixes tiny corner case scenarios. It is not worth the haste to try and figure out anytime it would actually apply.

It is the same as changing the rules to forbid off-color fetches: It could be done, but the rules jargon to get there is not worth the payoff.

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 9:57 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
iplaymtg wrote:
Why not change the rule to the following? (bolded text is added)

903.9. If mana would be added to a player's mana pool from an object that player owns of a color that isn't in the color identity of that player's commander, that amount of colorless mana is added to that player's mana pool instead.

This fixes pretty much everything on both sides of the argument.
That's a much less intuitive rules that only fixes tiny corner case scenarios. It is not worth the haste to try and figure out anytime it would actually apply.

It is the same as changing the rules to forbid off-color fetches: It could be done, but the rules jargon to get there is not worth the payoff.


Try to imagine when such occastions occur, though. After a scrambleverse with a mono-black commander, you might be left with a plains and a creature with an activated ability that requires white mana. A player would intuitively know that he/she could use the plains to pay for the ability.

Outside of such situations, the rule would almost never come up due to deck construction limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 12:07 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You might also be left with your RUG opponent's City of Brass, which not only taps for RUG but also now taps for W for some reason... ?!?!?!

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 12:33 pm 
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crokaycete wrote:
You might also be left with your RUG opponent's City of Brass, which not only taps for RUG but also now taps for W for some reason... ?!?!?!

But if there are no W costs for you to pay, it wouldn't matter. :) As a newbie the rule would still make sense, and could just read his/her opponents' cards as they are written.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 1:50 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm talking specifically about your situation where somebody casts Scrambleverse and you end up with another player's land and a White activated ability in your Black deck. As worded, the rule would allow you to use the RUG player's City of Brass to make W for the ability even though neither you nor the original owner should be allowed to make W with that land.

You don't think that's massively more confusing than the current rule?

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 1:51 pm 
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crokaycete wrote:
I'm talking specifically about your situation where somebody casts Scrambleverse and you end up with another player's land and a White activated ability in your Black deck. As worded, the rule would allow you to use the RUG player's City of Brass to make W for the ability even though neither you nor the original owner should be allowed to make W with that land.

You don't think that's massively more confusing than the current rule?

I do think it's less confusing. Imagine the rule didn't exist (as most people don't know it).


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 2:32 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
iplaymtg wrote:
I do think it's less confusing. Imagine the rule didn't exist (as most people don't know it).

I highly doubt you have evidence that would back up the allegation that most people are unaware of the mana production rule in EDH. Or rather that most EDH players are unaware of said rule, since most people are in fact unaware (and don't play EDH).

The proposed rule reads very simply, but creates annoying repercussions - if I control a Darksteel Ingot from my own deck and one from yours it's counterintuitive that only one of the two could produce off-CI mana. I also don't support changing the rules to further enable theft in general.

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 4:23 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I highly doubt you have evidence that would back up the allegation that most people are unaware of the mana production rule in EDH. Or rather that most EDH players are unaware of said rule, since most people are in fact unaware (and don't play EDH).

My evidence was me playing shared fate at a game, and only 2 people in the room of 8 had heard of the rule.
Sid the Chicken wrote:
The proposed rule reads very simply, but creates annoying repercussions - if I control a Darksteel Ingot from my own deck and one from yours it's counterintuitive that only one of the two could produce off-CI mana. I also don't support changing the rules to further enable theft in general.

How does it enable theft? Very few cards played in EDH have activated abilities requiring colored mana. Usually the rule is used to lock people out of the game with cards like Celestial Dawn and Shared Fate (as I now know...)


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-02 11:02 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
iplaymtg wrote:
and only 2 people in the room of 8 had heard of the rule.


Players being taught the rules incorrectly isn't evidence of something being wrong with the rules. It's evidence of something wrong with the teachers.

iplaymtg wrote:
After a scrambleversewith a mono-black commander


iplaymtg wrote:
My evidence was me playing shared fate at a game


I'm sorry, but I really can't understand how you can play these cards and not:
1) expect confusing, counter-intuitive things to happen
2) know the rules really well and be ready to explain 1) to your friends who are less informed

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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-03 3:31 am 
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24x30cl wrote:
I'm sorry, but I really can't understand how you can play these cards and not:
1) expect confusing, counter-intuitive things to happen
2) know the rules really well and be ready to explain 1) to your friends who are less informed


I didn't know the EDH-specific rules for mana production. We played without them previously (over a year) and the games were a lot of fun. Nothing broken happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Shared Fate mana colour interaction
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-03 6:58 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
iplaymtg wrote:
I didn't know the EDH-specific rules for mana production. We played without them previously (over a year) and the games were a lot of fun. Nothing broken happened.
Its not a matter of broken, as has been explained more than once. It is a matter of flavor and rule clarity. If you do not see what is wrong with two Darksteel ingots under a person's control (one stolen, one not) producing different types of mana as confusing, I don't think we are near enough the same page to have a useful discussion.

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