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 Post subject: Planeswalkers *SPOILERS*
AgePosted: 2007-Sep-04 11:43 am 
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How do we feel about Planeswalkers as Generals?

Rules can be found here:

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/ ... kers/week4

My initial response is no because the rules state that a general should be a creature, however these rules were created before Planeswalkers existed and so some more investigation, I think, is needed.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-04 1:37 pm 
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I really don't like the idea, but I'm curious ...

1) we keep the original general & we add the PW ?

So, some player will have legendary creatures as a general, and the others will have planewalker ... not very consistent, is it ?

2) We keep only the PW ?

The problem will be the number and the colors of the planewalkers. All the decks will look the same, and that's sad.

3) perhaps planewalkers will proove to be a bit too strong with the general rules...


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-04 3:52 pm 
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First off, Planeswalkers are not creatures. I don't see a problem with playing them in a deck, but as a General I stand a little bit wary.

They just remind me too much of malfunctioning Legendary Enchantments.

Not knowing what exact Planeswalkers we'll have access to limits how much a person, at this stage, is for or against them. I was curious what others thought of the idea while understanding that it is premature to go either way.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-04 8:09 pm 

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Planeswalkers can't attack. So much for general damage with a planeswalker as your general. It seems a little dumb to have them as generals.

If they were permissible (and I don't see why they should be), for consistency, you'd have to let other permanents be eligible, too. In which case I'd pick Humility, build a deck around it and ruin everyone's fun.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-04 8:37 pm 
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I would say no from a standpoint based strictly on the rules of the planeswalkers, although I could foresee them spawning their own highlander format similar in nature to EDH, which so far appears like it would be a chromatic format. Rules aside, a major draw back to accepting them as generals would be that no more than five players could have them, and only one player in an area per color. Admittedly these grounds would be similar to denying access to the off color PC dragon legends, but you can get into those color schemes with five color generals. Finally, there would be limited access, in a highlander environment, to cards that would effect them. As far as we know, they are immune to anything that effects creatures (Wrath and removal effects for the most part). I do not believe that a single set could print enough playable answers to planeswalkers to support the EDH crowds. I honestly would go so far as to say (atleast with the evidence so far and from drawing logical conclusions) that planeswalkers should not be permitted in EDH decks at all (which probably will not happen as a general rule, but may become popular house rules) until such a time as a greater number of answers are printed (or there is something else we do not know about with our current removal spells) and a greater number of planeswalkers are printed.
(as an aside, permitting planeswalkers as generals would not open the way to other permanent types. Planeswalkers are very similar to creatures in so far as they can be assigned damage and can get into combat, as well as the similarities to the planeswalker subtype state based effect and the legendary supertype state based effect)


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-04 10:31 pm 

Joined: 2007-Aug-31 10:48 am
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I am opposed to Planeswalkers as Generals. They really don't fill the same position as a general, and really seem more like Legendary Enchantments to me than the creature generals we know and love. All in all, I think that the only way we can make these 'Walkers work as generals is if we let Legendary Enchantments work as generals, and I have no interest in doing that. However, I would say that Planeswalkers should be allowed, and perhaps even encouraged, in decks that can support them-just not as generals.

Plus, the lack of ability to deal combat damage hurts them even more for me. I mean, I've never actually seen my group finish a game through general damage (which is more than a little weird...), but it's a fun and vital part of the format, if you ask me.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-05 12:33 pm 
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I'm personally in favour of Planeswalkers as generals.

I think that the "enchantments should be generals too" argument is somewhat flawed. The main reason I'm in favour of a Planeswalker general is one of flavour, and I think that's also the main reason that legendary enchantment generals seem so automatically abrasive.

Your general is a powerful ally, who commands your armies for you. Although often a mighty warrior in his or her own right, strategy, tactics and calculation are the traits that allowed them to rise to such a prestigious position.
Although it is unfortunate that the General Damage rule would be obsolete in Planeswalker decks, Planeswalkers fit the exact same role as Legendary Creatures in terms of this description.

We haven't yet seen 3/5 of the new Planeswalkers, but if they follow the model of the first two they shouldn't be very broken whatsoever. It was mentioned that they would be hard for people to deal with, but I haven't yet seen an EDH deck that doesn't play with creatures.

The abilities of Planeswalkers would be strong, but far from overwhelming (especially when compared to certain Legends like Jhoira or Karn). The threat of 21 General Damage is already non-existant in many decks already (Savra, Momir Vig), and these guys are great options for mono-colour decks, which many people think are currently underpowered.

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-05 7:25 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-07 1:11 pm
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I wouldn't be against allowing Planeswalkers to be generals. Obviously, they would be unable to complete a large facet of the game, but their abilities are not powerful, or not easily accomplishable enough to be "broken" in any way.

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-05 8:13 pm 

Joined: 2007-Aug-31 10:48 am
Age: Drake
Location: Portland, OR
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
I'm personally in favour of Planeswalkers as generals.

I think that the "enchantments should be generals too" argument is somewhat flawed. The main reason I'm in favour of a Planeswalker general is one of flavour, and I think that's also the main reason that legendary enchantment generals seem so automatically abrasive.

Your general is a powerful ally, who commands your armies for you. Although often a mighty warrior in his or her own right, strategy, tactics and calculation are the traits that allowed them to rise to such a prestigious position.
Although it is unfortunate that the General Damage rule would be obsolete in Planeswalker decks, Planeswalkers fit the exact same role as Legendary Creatures in terms of this description.

We haven't yet seen 3/5 of the new Planeswalkers, but if they follow the model of the first two they shouldn't be very broken whatsoever. It was mentioned that they would be hard for people to deal with, but I haven't yet seen an EDH deck that doesn't play with creatures.

The abilities of Planeswalkers would be strong, but far from overwhelming (especially when compared to certain Legends like Jhoira or Karn). The threat of 21 General Damage is already non-existant in many decks already (Savra, Momir Vig), and these guys are great options for mono-colour decks, which many people think are currently underpowered.


A fair argument, and from a flavor standpoint, I agree with you. However, I really think that in terms of gameplay, Planeswalkers really do work more like Legendary Enchantments than Creatures. And if you ask me, a big part of a general's function is its ability to work as a creature.

Also, another argument which might actually be more relevant: What about other players? Planeswalkers are the cool, new, sexy card type: I'm sure that everyone and their dog will want to give them a whirl if they're on color. However, if a player uses a Planeswalker as their general, he or she automatically blocks any other player from experimenting with that 'Walker. And since there are only five 'Walkers, that strikes me as a big negative. Maybe once more Planeswalkers become available, I'll be more favorable towards their inclusion as generals.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 12:49 pm 
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Yodafan wrote:
However, I really think that in terms of gameplay, Planeswalkers really do work more like Legendary Enchantments than Creatures. And if you ask me, a big part of a general's function is its ability to work as a creature.


It's true and undeniable; Planeswalkers are glorified Enchantments (what isn't?). The second sentance, though, seems strange. Why does the general have to work as a creature?

Quote:
Also, another argument which might actually be more relevant: What about other players? Planeswalkers are the cool, new, sexy card type: I'm sure that everyone and their dog will want to give them a whirl if they're on color. However, if a player uses a Planeswalker as their general, he or she automatically blocks any other player from experimenting with that 'Walker. And since there are only five 'Walkers, that strikes me as a big negative.


I'm not sure what your play group is like, but I think you might be severely overestimating how popular they are going to be. First of all, people hate mono-coloured decks. The Roll Call board actually says that the majority of generals are three or more colours. I don't think that Planeswalker generals would be very common at all.
Second, 'walkers will be very fragile in multiplayer environments. With two or more players able to swing in with their creatures, laying a powerful Planeswalker might turn out to be a very weak play.

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Last edited by Ban Ki-moon on 2007-Sep-13 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 3:01 pm 

Joined: 2007-Aug-31 10:48 am
Age: Drake
Location: Portland, OR
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Yodafan wrote:
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
However, I really think that in terms of gameplay, Planeswalkers really do work more like Legendary Enchantments than Creatures. And if you ask me, a big part of a general's function is its ability to work as a creature.


It's true and undeniable; Planeswalkers are glorified Enchantments (what isn't?). The second sentance, though, seems strange. Why does the general have to work as a creature?


I don't know. It just feels dirty to me, though, if your general doesn't fill the same duties as a creature. It's probably just silly personal bias, but I just don't think its right to play a general who is not a creature. Part of legendary creatures' appeal to me is that they are exemplary creatures (in theory), but still serve as critters. Just my opinion, though.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, another argument which might actually be more relevant: What about other players? Planeswalkers are the cool, new, sexy card type: I'm sure that everyone and their dog will want to give them a whirl if they're on color. However, if a player uses a Planeswalker as their general, he or she automatically blocks any other player from experimenting with that 'Walker. And since there are only five 'Walkers, that strikes me as a big negative.


I'm not sure what your play group is like, but I think you might be severely overestimating how popular they are going to be. First of all, people hate mono-coloured decks. The Roll Call board actually says that the majority of generals are three or more colours. I don't think that Planeswalker generals would be very common at all.
Second, 'walkers will be very fragile in multiplayer environments. With two or more players able to swing in with their creatures, laying a powerful Planeswalker might turn out to be a very weak play.


You're right: Mono-color Legends are not very popular. But when it comes right down to it, a legendary creature works in a very different way than a Planeswalker. As I said, they play more like enchantments than creatures, but they don't really play like either. It's an entirely new way to explore the format and the General rule should they work as generals. Maybe they're weak, and maybe they're strong, but I think that players will want to explore the idea of using 'Walkers as generals if such an action is allowed, or test how they work in the format, and I worry that allowing them as generals right off will limit their usability and the ability to test them as cards, not just as Generals. Once again, once a few more enter the fray, I'd be more tempted to allow them, but with so few in the initial set, it just strikes me as a bad idea.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-07 6:16 am 
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Age: Drake
Location: Oberlin, OH, USA
I'm against allowing them as generals at this time.

If someone grabs, say Liliana Vess, as general, then nobody else in the group can have Liliana Vess in their deck. The Planeswalkers are the hot new toys that everybody wants to play with. We have past precedent that says we want EDH players to get to play with the hot new toys.

The precedent is the Fifth Dawn bringers. There was a special exception made to the "no mana symbols outside your general's color" rule for those cards so that they wouldn't be the sole province of players with five-color generals.

The bringers aren't the latest hotness anymore. We probably could get rid of the bringer exception with little effect upon the format at this point if we chose to do that. Likewise, when Planeswalkers are not the latest hotness, we could reconsider them as generals.

But not now.

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-10 11:02 am 

Joined: 2007-Aug-08 3:05 pm
Age: Hatchling
I'm not really in favor of them as generals at this point either, at least until we get a chance to see how they shake out in games a few times.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-10 10:13 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Planeswalkers will be a force in EDH, as they will in all formats. They cannot, and will not, be Generals in the official rules of the format. Your local group is welcome to do whatever you choose.

Sheldon

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-11 1:14 am 

Joined: 2006-Aug-01 8:14 pm
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I will be a fan of trying to use the 'walkers as generals once there is enough of them in enough colour combinations that EDH could be run with just 'walkers for generals.

I suspect that day is a long way off :)


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