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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 3:54 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
All of this sounds completely fair to me. Winning through combat damage is totally legit. And easily stoppable. Throw in a few instant removal spells and maze of ith effects. If a player uses tainted strike on the mana screwed dude, that's on the player not the cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-May-20 9:04 am 
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Joined: 2017-May-20 8:53 am
Age: Egg
I like the current rules for infect, personally.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-13 2:18 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 2:14 am
Age: Egg
I play a wide variety of games, on and offline, against high end and tier2 players. While one doesn't see poison kills all that often, when poison is employed it's often QUITE effective.

Today the most common method of poison kill is a rather simple one... Rather than hitting someone with combat damage (who swings anymore?!), you cast "Ichor Rats" or the like and proliferate with Atraxa. THAT is a real+genuine problem and is difficult to disrupt. Once the train gets rolling it's over.

It makes logical sense to adjust poison kills and many tables will elect to raise it to 15 or 20 poison damage to make it fair. Considering how easy it is to flash in "Blightsteel Colossus" and have it zap for damage, it makes sense to have poison kills be at least above 12.

Given the life ratio of 20 vs 40, I'd say 15 or 20 poison to kill is fair and logical.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 4:31 am 

Joined: 2012-Jan-09 9:37 am
Age: Wyvern
On the other hand, it's so much fun casting Backlash on someone's Blightsteel Colossus.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 6:40 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
Age: Drake
One of my group plays a dedicated poison deck which basically isn't very likely to win a table.
I have Skittles in my Mimeoplasm deck. It's really hard to get it to lethal power, and unless it's hasty it's unlikely to impact anything. If I get it turn 2 then yes, it can be absurd, but that's really unlikely. Usually I gained a commander tax for no benefit. My favourite recent play was making a 9/9 skittles and attacking into the guy that was going to win next turn and having his ally break the pact by pumping it for lethal:P What you should do is ban politics and traitors.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 9:27 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Poison is very much a house-rule issue. Because it can take some real investment, 15-20 counters can ruin a strategy. But if a deck is doing too well, or making games suck to readily maybe a bump to 15 is warranted.

I don't think an official rules change is going to work on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 10:04 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
PortlandEDH wrote:
, you cast Ichor Rats or the like and proliferate with Atraxa. THAT is a real+genuine problem and is difficult to disrupt. Once the train gets rolling it's over..

I mean... with just the two of them you're talking at best a turn 11 win (assuming a t1 dork, t2 rats, t3 Atraxa). Even dropping down a Contagion Engine next turn means a T7 win, and any less effective counter spreader pushes it back at least a turn. And that's assuming for those seven turns nobody else has any removal for the strategy. And again, that's also assuming what's pretty close to a godhand.

There are FAR more dangerous things in the format than that scenario. Even within the scope of what Atraxa can pull off. I'm not convinced that's any more dangerous or unhealthy for the format than your standard Atraxa superfriends.

And with the Blightsteel example... what are we talking, a 3-5 card combo? And Blightsteel can probably be swapped out for Serra Avatar with similar results.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 4:22 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
Most of the people I've talked to over the years have had a negative view of Infect as a keyword, and my play group intentionally avoids it. Personally, I'll always say Tangle Angler is the one Infect creature that's 100% okay. It's a lot more effective at taking out big creatures without actually getting them into the graveyard where they can be reanimated. I'd agree that Atraxa can be the 'Poison Kill' problem, especially with access to four colors, but I think a lot of people would say she's one of those commanders who can quickly turn it into an Archenemy game. And if someone's tutoring out guaranteed poison in an Atraxa deck, isn't that more of a player issue?

As for Blightsteel Colossus, I've only ever had it in a deck when I knew someone was running Sadistic Sacrament or Jester's Cap and couldn't find a better decoy. It's just too big of a threat to want to pull out, draws too much hate, and it's invulnerable to basic removal (damage, destroy, deathtouch). But I have been eyeing Nemesis Mask, and thinking of making a gimmicky deck around that kind of idea, and Blightsteel would definitely take out something important (including most commanders) before soaking an exile removal. I've never used Infect for the Poison option because I've actually never seen someone lose because of Poison. The few times I might have, it was a 1v1 and way back when it was new, Blightsteel onto the board, and then they gave up on the turn they ran out of blockers and would have been one-shotted on my next turn (another reason my two Blightsteels have sat in a binder for the past few years). Darksteel Colossus is just an easier, better alternative that doesn't attract the same kind of hate, and it's less expensive.

I can see how Poison and Atraxa might ruin some games, but I don't see it as a huge problem because, to me, it looks either like a player issue in going with the anti-fun plan, or making the mistake of not ganging up on the Atraxa player once they commit to that plan (which could also be called a player issue). I'm sure either talking to the person or getting your play group on board with ganging up on them every time they run Atraxa would do something to help fix the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 4:27 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
There's a gentleman in our playgroup with an "Atraxa Infect" deck. He doesn't sugarcoat it, doesn't pretend it's anything other than what it is. And it's superlatively fun play against.

Now, keep in mind, this isn't the Triumph of the Hordes, "surprise, Tainted Strike!" sort of deck. He's not trying to Temur Battle Rage a Putrefax on an empty board. He's playing all of the infecty guys- -even the crappy under-the-cure likes of Rot Wolf and Spinebiter and Tine Shrike, et. al.- -alongside Hand of the Praetors and Inkmoth Nexus and Phyrexian Vatmother and Ichor Rats. It's straightforward, simplistic, and very "can I get you to 10?"

Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. But it's always entertaining. Always tense. He's even gotten infected out himself (via Unwilling Recruit!).

My opinion: No change necessary. Keep the poison loss condition the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting Poison Kill
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 4:56 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
PortlandEDH wrote:
, you cast Ichor Rats or the like and proliferate with Atraxa. THAT is a real+genuine problem and is difficult to disrupt. Once the train gets rolling it's over..

I mean... with just the two of them you're talking at best a turn 11 win (assuming a t1 dork, t2 rats, t3 Atraxa). Even dropping down a Contagion Engine next turn means a T7 win, and any less effective counter spreader pushes it back at least a turn. And that's assuming for those seven turns nobody else has any removal for the strategy. And again, that's also assuming what's pretty close to a godhand.


And and and;
This also means Atraxa player isn't (or barely) playing additional sorceries or permanents to keep sinking mana into the Engine. Even as slow as that strat sounds when you describe it, it's actually a little bit slower still.

I'm not afraid of a 10-turn clock because someone plays their commander personally. Many commanders are. And if it's actually (sure it's subjective...) a competitive meta i don't really think Ichor Rats/Atraxa is fine for the main win con.


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