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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-25 10:19 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
My playgroup has played with planeswalkers as commanders for a while now. None are oppressive.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-25 11:27 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Willbender wrote:
1) Every Commander deck does have ways of dealing with PWs - creatures. Your own commander if nothing else.
1) That's less convincing since we're talking about PW as commanders -- and very few of them can become a creature to attack another planeswalker. Just because you have a PW as a commander doesn't mean I might not -- which then reduces the chance of either of us having a creature to 'remove' the planeswalker commanders.
I did think of that when writing my post, but decided that it would take me on a tangent away from my main point for what is essentially an edge case. Besides, anyone running a PW as a general would be both more likely to have that type of threat in mind when building, and less likely to be running near-creatureless.

Carthain wrote:
Willbender wrote:
Except, as I've already said, I've never seen a deck that couldn't already deal with planeswalkers, and 99% of those can deal with planeswalkers more efficiently than with creatures.
But being able to deal damage in the red zone really depends on the defensive deck as well. So just because a deck may have creatures to 'deal' with planeswalkers, doesn't mean they'll be able to easily connect.
True, but at the same time you can't always deal with creatures - with hexproof/shroud (Swiftfoot Boots/Lightning Greaves), indestructible, counterspells, regeneration, blinking, etc. you can make a creature even harder to get rid of. My point was that protected creatures are often harder to remove than protected PWs.

Carthain wrote:
Doesn't mean I like the idea of allowing them in (other than the ones specifically made to be commanders)
Understandable - it's a big change, and one that would hinge primarily on your sense of the "flavor" of commanders. I think PWs fit very well, but I know many others don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-26 1:52 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
Besides, anyone running a PW as a general would be both more likely to have that type of threat in mind when building, and less likely to be running near-creatureless.

I don't think that's a given at all. :) Yes, some people will be mindful of that, but others won't.

Willbender wrote:
My point was that protected creatures are often harder to remove than protected PWs.

I don't agree with that. There's plenty of options for mass removal (wraths, or wraths that tuck, or wraths that exile for your hexproof+indestructible ones) that often don't include planeswalkers. So even the toughest creatures to get rid of are likely easier to get rid of (or, higher chance that a single card will be able to deal with it) vs trying to get rid of a planeswalker.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-26 3:09 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I think a lot of walker decks would turn into boardwipes.dec... especially any of the ones with red. That's a thing for many walker-based decks already, since most sweeper won't touch the walkers, and many walkers will help you recover faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-27 12:43 am 

Joined: 2014-Jun-20 1:25 am
Age: Wyvern
I understand i'm fighting a Vorthosian concept with a very Melvin argument... in the format that vorthos built no less.

I agree that my points are not meant to be unassailable, they are just my point of view of the most damning aspect of the planeswalker commander bug. I want people to think about the ramifications of allowing a new card type to the Commander chair rather then just asking "is this cool?"

Other potential issues to consider include but are not limited to.

1) Opening the door to a new card type (PW) should (and probably will) cause other card types with the Legendary Super-type to be considered for general status. While i doubt we have much to fear from a Legendary Land Commanded Deck, Legendary Artifacts and Enchantments may create bugs in the system as mentioned above for new card type status.

2) Planeswalker's (generally) three abilities operate on a resource system removed from the rest of the game. They are self contained engines, with the limiting turn over of "Once per turn, on your turn", and in the last year Wizards broke both of those rules (Chain Veil and Terifi). Since they provide you with resources/actions "for free" (no cost in cards in hard, mana, or other permanents. generally), they should be looked at more closely for potential abuse. When accessed normally, this resource economy is already powerful. Ancedotally, most games I'm in cause the entire table to agree to walker removal when it lands, demonstrating the threat we feel it presents. When access become repeated it can border on oppressive.

3) Planeswalker action versatility is largely unmatched in magic. While most walkers have a Vorthosian theme, the application of that theme is intentionally varied on the card to give it roundness. There are few cards that can do as much as a planeswalker. More options are often the stepping stones to more power. Sure, Tibalt is our resident derp walker, but at the end of the day he gives consistent access to free inconsistent filter or direct damage to an opponent's head. And he's the low end of our scale. A Jace variant draws you a card, so shucks off 1/10 of your opponents library. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad makes a dude or makes all of your weenies more powerful, forever. Even the commander ones can feel dangerously versatile. Freyelaise ramps while defending her self or threatening your opponent (1/1 creature with a relevant ability and tribal type, not much on his own, but so much potential) or removes a permanent, netting increasing card advantage. It's hard to find legendary creatures so well rounded.

4) The planeswalker "ultimate" abilities are almost all back breaking and designed win games, or put you in a position of overwhelming superiority. This is one area that Commander Specific walkers were well designed: only Terifi and Derevi felt like the game was lost in the instant, but in reality it just became and upward climb. The grind toward the ultimate gives the game a certain air of inevitability and a race against the player playing one as a commander. Racing decks isn't new to commander: Aggro decks try to go under the time setup for Control and Combo, and generals like Porpheros can make the game a speed run. Just because the dynamic exists though, doesn't make it good for the format. Especially when walker ultimates tend to be worded more as "your options are limited, while i kill you" rather than "I win".

5) Right now the limitations on walkers seem to be largely based on availability. Wizards doesn't print more than 5-10 a year, and we're just beginning to see they color identities grow to cover the two color combos, and their toes are in the three color. While it may be easy to say "Walkers give you resource versatility at the cost of color identity and commander damage", i think it's safe to say that the color identity weakness is one will soften over time as more walkers are printed. In addition, as more walkers are printed more walker concepts will be explored. So where UW might right now be limited to a bounce themed walker that supports creatures, and a non-creature casting support walker, it would be fair to say that other UW archetypes will find their walker representation.

A) I changed numbering for a reason, because i'm changing from Melvin argument to Vorthos. A commander is your subordinate. He's a guy you tell to lead your deck in whatever direction it's going. A planeswalker is an ally. He's your buddy that you toss a 6 pack and a pizza to and ask to help you move. Putting a walker at the front of a deck feels weird to me in the same way it would be weird to ask a friend to play your deck for you. Planeswalkers, i feel, are story line above creatures. They aren't minions, they are friends willing to help you out if you feed them some mana. Call them too much, and they'll hang up and tell you to move your own couch at three in the morning. Telling one to do the grunt work of your deck feels.. wrong.

TL, DR In the Long run, i'm concerned the power and versatility of walkers will eventually overshadow the legendary creatures, and make them the obvious first choice for commanders. And they are your buds, not your minions.

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JJackson wrote:
redcarddraw wrote:
They aren't minions, they are friends willing to help you out if you feed them some mana.

Steve, Friendwalker
+1: Play some cards and drink a couple of beers.
-2: Help you rearrange the living room.
-8: Bail you out of jail.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-27 1:53 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
redcarddraw wrote:
They aren't minions, they are friends willing to help you out if you feed them some mana.

Steve, Friendwalker
+1: Play some cards and drink a couple of beers.
-2: Help you rearrange the living room.
-8: Bail you out of jail.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-27 2:01 am 

Joined: 2014-Jun-20 1:25 am
Age: Wyvern
JJackson wrote:
Steve, Friendwalker
+1: Play some cards and drink a couple of beers.
-2: Help you rearrange the living room.
-8: Bail you out of jail.


so much win.

_________________
Death from Above
Queen's Gambit
The Virtue of Sloth
Welcome to the Jungle
~*TOP SECRET*~
Thousand Atrocity Apparatus
Revenge of the Compost Heap
Weirder Science
Nightmares and Dregscapes
Devotion to War
Looking for Group
Lords of the Pit
Many Headed Offensive

JJackson wrote:
redcarddraw wrote:
They aren't minions, they are friends willing to help you out if you feed them some mana.

Steve, Friendwalker
+1: Play some cards and drink a couple of beers.
-2: Help you rearrange the living room.
-8: Bail you out of jail.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-27 2:28 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
redcarddraw wrote:
They aren't minions, they are friends willing to help you out if you feed them some mana.

Steve, Friendwalker
+1: Play some cards and drink a couple of beers.
-2: Help you rearrange the living room.
-8: Bail you out of jail.

I notice there's no ability to have him help you move... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-27 3:31 am 

Joined: 2014-Jun-20 1:25 am
Age: Wyvern
Carthain wrote:
I notice there's no ability to have him help you move... :D


that's on his other card

Steve, The Good Guy
+2 Bake Brownies
-3 Help you move
-6 Pick you up at the airport

_________________
Death from Above
Queen's Gambit
The Virtue of Sloth
Welcome to the Jungle
~*TOP SECRET*~
Thousand Atrocity Apparatus
Revenge of the Compost Heap
Weirder Science
Nightmares and Dregscapes
Devotion to War
Looking for Group
Lords of the Pit
Many Headed Offensive

JJackson wrote:
redcarddraw wrote:
They aren't minions, they are friends willing to help you out if you feed them some mana.

Steve, Friendwalker
+1: Play some cards and drink a couple of beers.
-2: Help you rearrange the living room.
-8: Bail you out of jail.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-27 4:10 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Carthain wrote:
I notice there's no ability to have him help you move... :D

-6: Help you move. Sacrifice a pizza and a 6-pack or remove an additional 2 loyalty counters from Steve.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-28 3:12 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
redcarddraw wrote:
Carthain wrote:
I notice there's no ability to have him help you move... :D


that's on his other card

Steve, The Good Guy
+2 Bake Brownies
-3 Help you move
-6 Pick you up at the airport

Why is helping you move easier than a pickup from the airport?

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-28 9:16 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
redcarddraw wrote:
Steve, The Good Guy
+2 Bake Brownies
-3 Help you move
-6 Pick you up at the airport
Why is helping you move easier than a pickup from the airport?
Telekinesis?

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-28 11:31 pm 
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Joined: 2010-May-24 10:53 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: OH
IDK if you've ever tried to get to LaGuardia or JFK on a Monday morning, but I'd rather help someone move.


(Last time I picked someone up at LGA at 11:30 in the morning, it was a 4 hour trip to go 130 total miles and I got rear ended on the way home, nearly engaging in fisticuffs with an old man as a result on the Hutch)

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-29 3:22 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Ziontific wrote:
IDK if you've ever tried to get to LaGuardia or JFK on a Monday morning, but I'd rather help someone move.

Well, that's fair. My whole state has about 1/8 the people in NYC. The airport isn't a problem.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-29 11:45 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jun-20 1:25 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Why is helping you move easier than a pickup from the airport?


I live north of the DC metro area, and it's always "I need a ride to Dulles. My flight leaves at 5 AM."
I may see my home again that week...

_________________
Death from Above
Queen's Gambit
The Virtue of Sloth
Welcome to the Jungle
~*TOP SECRET*~
Thousand Atrocity Apparatus
Revenge of the Compost Heap
Weirder Science
Nightmares and Dregscapes
Devotion to War
Looking for Group
Lords of the Pit
Many Headed Offensive

JJackson wrote:
redcarddraw wrote:
They aren't minions, they are friends willing to help you out if you feed them some mana.

Steve, Friendwalker
+1: Play some cards and drink a couple of beers.
-2: Help you rearrange the living room.
-8: Bail you out of jail.


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