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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 10:27 am 
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crokaycete wrote:
cheethorne wrote:
There is also the fact that this change would probably not generate much "feel bad" moments in a game when a player discovers this change for the first time.
Maybe not. As I've said before, I don't think any planeswalker commander is actually a problem for multiplayer EDH because planewalkers are generally just not that good in multiplayer. All the same, the first time somebody plops down a JtMS commander deck against somebody who doesn't know PWs are legal commanders, I doubt the opponent is going to be thrilled about it. (Although I don't think a JtMS commander would actually be a problem for the format.)

Plus, "it probably wouldn't be that bad" is still not a compelling argument for change. With the (hopefully temporary) exception of Werewolf Tribal, there doesn't seem to be anything that PW commanders are really adding to the format. (I think if there were big gains to be had here, we would see a lot more outcry for a change to format rules and/or the change would already have happened.)


Yea, I can't see a single PW being a problem in a multi-player format. In a 1v1 situation I can see them being stronger but still can be dealt with.

I'm not sure what it would take to make this change tho.

Who knows maybe wizards will do another PW Commander set someday. This year is 4C commanders which will be awesome!


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 2:36 pm 
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crokaycete wrote:
With the (hopefully temporary) exception of Werewolf Tribal, there doesn't seem to be anything that PW commanders are really adding to the format.


The same could be said about a ton of Legendary creatures, but they get in by default anyway.

How about this:
1) There are some commanders with interesting build-around-me qualities that emphasize an interesting theme.

2) It allows players to play as the most important characters in the current on-going story.

Planeswalkers have become an incredibly important facet of MtG. They form the centre of the on-going stories, they are the most touted characters in every set, they form the key art for the expansions, and they have their own super-team now in the form of the Gatewatch.

Players and new people coming to the format will be seeing the planeswalkers on art and in stories and will be told about the format where they can use the heroes of the story as the Commander of their deck, but, you know, not the real heroes of the story, just the second string heroes like Jori En, Ruin Diver instead of Kiora, Master of the Depths.

This disconnect between where the story actually is focused (the doings of Planeswalkers) and where Commander is focused (on second string characters that are legendary creatures) is just going to get wider and more awkward.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 11:11 pm 
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cheethorne wrote:
How about this:
1) There are some commanders with interesting build-around-me qualities that emphasize an interesting theme.

2) It allows players to play as the most important characters in the current on-going story.


I like the idea of PW becoming legal and your arguments are fair and to me, valid. I'm hoping the RC weighs in on this and to get some new direction here. Clearly a group wants this to happen and I would like to get their thoughts. I'm curious if they tested this and what their thoughts were on the tests.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 1:15 am 
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CMDTower wrote:
I'm hoping the RC weighs in on this and to get some new direction here. Clearly a group wants this to happen and I would like to get their thoughts.

I imagine as a group they are pretty change-adverse, and there is nothing especially wrong with that as a base attitude. With nearly all rule changes, the starting position of the RC seems to be that "the rules are pretty decent and don't need to be changed" even if they do end up deciding that a change is a good idea.

You know, another good reason for this particular change is that if this format were created today instead of however many years ago it was made, I can't imagine them not including planeswalkers as Commanders since they fit the bill for these important central characters that they were going for with the Elder Dragon Legends from years ago.

In fact, I could easily imagine a scenario where the format would have been created so that you could only choose a planeswalker as a Commander and the fight people would have trying to include ~620 Legendary Creatures in the game (arguments of "it increases deck diversity" vs. "it will dilute the origin of the format as planeswalker focused").

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 6:26 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I toyed with the idea of having a lieutenant in addition to the commander.

The lieutenant must be at least 1/2 of the commanders color identity. Starts in the command zone. Is subject to the same or greater tax (we tried a +3). We tried having the lieutenant make the commander cost 1 less when in play (hence the increased tax).

Having a walker as a lieutenant might be interesting. I don't think we have enough walkers yet to really have a diverse format, but when you pair them up with a legendary creature I think there is a lot of room for interesting stuff. At the very least I want to build the Bolas-Bolas and Karn-Karn deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 8:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Having 2 cards in CZ will just make people's choice to completely ignore reasonable mana ratios in their decks all the more tilting. I don't think I could handle it.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 8:52 am 
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Slightly OT: I toyed with the idea of having another card available in the CZ as well, as long as it shared a name with your Commander (like Mageta the Lion and Mageta's Boon or Heliod, God of the Sun and Heliod's Pilgrim (or Emissary, or Spear, or Ordeal, or Evangel...)) where you could cast it as if it were in your hand, once per game. Never really got further than that though. (Plus Razia, Boros Archangel and Razia's Purification would suck a bit).

Back On-Topic: I think flavourfully Planeswalkers as Commanders would be cool. Don't know how thrilled I'd be to sit across from a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker or Karn Liberated deck, but my playgroup is pretty cool and I don't think they'd be dicks about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 9:08 am 
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Viperion wrote:
Back On-Topic: I think flavourfully Planeswalkers as Commanders would be cool. Don't know how thrilled I'd be to sit across from a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker or Karn Liberated deck, but my playgroup is pretty cool and I don't think they'd be dicks about it.

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon would probably also go on that list. The ability to come in and wrath the board immediately is really good.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:44 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
But they also cost 8, and would get to 10/12 quickly. That mitigates the dickishness

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:49 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker or Karn Liberated
I'm not even convinced these cards are that good in EDH. Karn's + ability is pretty terrible in multiplayer and a 7 mana vindicate isn't exactly great either. Bolas is definitely stronger, but 8 grixis mana seems like a fine amount to pay for what he does.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 1:45 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
there doesn't seem to be anything that PW commanders are really adding to the format. (I think if there were big gains to be had here, we would see a lot more outcry for a change to format rules and/or the change would already have happened.)

PWs as commanders would be adding a lot. +~60 commanders, new styles of play, commanders with a bunch of abilities but no attacks/blocks/susceptible to attack. They are a whole different card type than creature, i think you could scarcely make any change to add more to the format. (at least in plausible veins of thought, not anything blatantly ridiculous like allowing Schemes or Planes to be your commander).

Since most people don't get on forums to chatter about this, i actually don't think you'd hear more outcry. There is undoubtedly some amount of people who are not bothering to ask if they don't think it's ever going to happen either. Presuming we are correct that they are not totally broken, there also has to be some amount of people that don't understand this, and of course would not vote to add 'broken af' commanders. I mean i totally understand we can't even know the numbers of those people, but it does explain at least a fair amount of the lack of outcry.
And being that PWs as commanders is not in the vision of the RC for the format, any big gains you suppose they may or may not be seeing are moot anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 2:06 pm 
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If anything, I think making select planeswalkers available as commanders would be better than making them all and then banning some.

Each rules announcement, make 5-10 more available. You could do cycles (Lorwyn 5, dual color pairs, etc)

Start with 5 mono colored, next announcement, add 5 more and adjust the first ones if needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-18 12:30 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Necrachilles wrote:
If anything, I think making select planeswalkers available as commanders would be better than making them all and then banning some.

Each rules announcement, make 5-10 more available. You could do cycles (Lorwyn 5, dual color pairs, etc)

Start with 5 mono colored, next announcement, add 5 more and adjust the first ones if needed.
This is not a good approach. Essentially what you are saying when you introduce them in small batches is that you have tested and approved each new batch as it launches. This is not realistic and sets a completely arbitrary line dividing that has to manually be checked each time someone has an idea. And, in practice, the "legal" list would be completely ignored after the first 2 releases with people (correctly) deciding the current list is completely arbitrary and any PW is a fine commander.

Nobody should be worried about specific PWs breaking EDH. It's just not a real problem.
Sovarius wrote:
+~60 commanders, new styles of play, commanders with a bunch of abilities but no attacks/blocks/susceptible to attack.
People keep saying things like this, but I think it's very difficult to back up. Especially with the 5 flip-walkers on the scene + the 5 precon commanders, there is just not that much that you can do strategically with a PW commander that you can't do with an existing legal commander. Yes, they provide slightly different implementation approaches, but I think you could pretty comfortably count the new deck archetypes you are opening up on your fingers. (My count is 1. Arlinn werewolf tribal 2. Ral Zarek coin flips 3. Tezzert, AoB UB artifacts)
cheethorne wrote:
2) It allows players to play as the most important characters in the current on-going story.
This, I think, is a real thing worth considering.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-18 12:57 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
Viperion wrote:
Back On-Topic: I think flavourfully Planeswalkers as Commanders would be cool. Don't know how thrilled I'd be to sit across from a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker or Karn Liberated deck, but my playgroup is pretty cool and I don't think they'd be dicks about it.

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon would probably also go on that list. The ability to come in and wrath the board immediately is really good.


Can I add Narset Transcendent to this list too? UW colour identity (so excellent control colours), obnoxious ultimate, can possibly arrive on T2 off a Sol Ring (and +1 to go to 7 of the 9 required loyalty immediately). There's a disaster waiting to happen there.

And yes, I know most of the broken stuff with Narset would involve fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, signets and pals). But if we're being realistic, that fast mana is not getting banned. There's potentially an issue here, and not just for the stax groups.

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Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
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Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2016-May-18 2:09 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Swmystery wrote:
Can I add Narset Transcendent to this list too?
This doesn't feel more broken than some Zur or Arcum or (orther) Narset starts. I'm not saying broken Zur, Arcum, and Narset decks are where the format wants to be most of the time, but they certainly have a place.

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